Sudarsono: Well, I am sure that these things happen on the ground beyond the control of both forces, both of GAM [Free Aceh Movement] as well as the army. My reservation only that this quote can also apply to atrocities done by the GAM people on the ground.

Q: What do you mean when you say it is beyond the control of those forces? What do you mean beyond the control of Indonesian commanders to stop this sort of thing happening?

Sudarsono: Well, once you have soldiers on the ground who are facing terrorist organizations like GAM, there is no way that any commander can have immediate operational control on the troops on the ground and that goes also for the GAM forces. No GAM political leader on the ground, much less in Sweden, can have any control over independent and rogue elements doing precisely the same things that the report has been misquoted.

Q: But that´s a huge indictment isn´t it of the Indonesian military control and command that they would just let their soldiers effectively act with impunity on the ground which is what Human Rights Watch says is going on.

Sudarsono: Well this is basically a war which is happening. My only reservation as I´ve said again is that this quote can also come from sources opposed to the GAM, very similar happening, has been happening on the ground over the past few months.

Q: Human Rights Watch says it can´t comment on what GAM forces are actually doing in Aceh because it´s not allowed into the province. It´s not allowed to monitor what is going on, it´s not been allowed to talk to members of GAM. Why don´t you lift the veil of secrecy as Human Rights Watch suggests? Allow in the NGOs, allow the free press, allow back the monitors, the diplomats, the U.N.

Sudarsono: Because the NGOs and human rights organizations have put themselves in the position of a priori against the military operation and this is precisely why.

Q: Well what is the evidence for that though?

Sudarsono: Well, we´ve had a number of the experiences with the Henry Dunant Centre both in Aceh and other places, where the a priori position against authority is always present. And this is part of the human rights campaign everywhere.

Q: Are you saying that the Henri Dunant Centre is part of a human rights conspiracy against the Indonesian government when it comes to Aceh?

Sudarsono: It is not conspiracy, but human rights ideology is almost always against any belief in government and state authority.

Q: Is it the position of diplomats who haven´t been allowed in? Is it the position of the U.N.?

Sudarsono: Yes. Because, even the U.N. has its own problems of credibility. My experience in East Timor showed that they were not neutral. They were biased against any elements of the Indonesian authorities being given a second chance to present their case.

Q: So are you saying that effectively nobody is in a position to really assess what Indonesia is doing in Aceh?

Sudarsono: Right. And the other point is, if you have people coming in, in a war situation like Aceh, even these people will be subject to hostage and kidnapping and used by the GAM to present again their evidence, in their eyes, of atrocities committed by Indonesian authorities. We cannot have it both ways.

Q: What is going to be done to follow up some of these deaths though? I mean even an Indonesian human rights organization said between May and August 78 people, civilians, disappeared?

Sudarsono: You cannot expect legal accountability in a war situation, Catherine. It is a very difficult situation. The precise rules of humanitarian law just go out of the window once the shooting starts.

Q: So, the Geneva Conventions, nothing applies?

Sudarsono: No Geneva Conventions can apply as we see also in Iraq at the moment.