Podcast: Offline and Online

Audrey: This is Power of the Streets, a podcast series brought to you by Human Rights Watch about how we speak truth to power. I’m Audrey Kawire Wabwire, and I’m based in Nairobi, Kenya. 

In the previous episode we spoke to Nigerian film maker Kiki Mordi, who produced an award-winning documentary about sex for grades in Nigeria and Ghana’s universities. 

In this episode we take the conversation to Malawi.

Everyone we speak to in the series has a second,  a minute, or an hour, when they realize that they need to make a change. The moment when they decide to step up… and Rise.

Lusungu: Honestly, I don't even remember not being this way and I can't imagine so I don't know. I just know growing up, I had a lot of questions and to a certain extent, my parents allowed me to ask those questions. There was always that issue of, Oh, you're being rude or also manage how you talk to your elders, etc. But there were just some things I didn't understand. Why is my brother being let to play and I have to stay and wash the dishes and stuff like that. 

Audrey: That’s Lusungu Kalanga, a Malawian feminist, activist and gender and development practitioner. 

So I'm going to go through some of your accomplishments and some of the things you are taking up. You're a fellow in the very prestigious Mandela Washington Program. You’re also in the Moremi Initiative Program, which we'll talk about too. And your activism has really been centered around girls’ access to education. And you're also podcasting producing the show Feministing while Malawian. Clearly, you care so much about women's rights. So let's just go back all the way to the beginning to the moment when you began your activism. Why did you decide to stand up for women's rights and girls' education?

Lusungu: My dad happened to be in the development field, I think back in the day he used to work for one of these big INGOs, WorldVision. Sometimes he would take me to the field and l was very interested wondering, is this really working? Why is this happening like that? So, I would ask a lot of questions and l was very conscious from a young age to see that l’m not getting the same as this girl in this village or l’m not getting the same as this person who is working for us, for example as househelp. So it started like that, but I didn't have a name for it. I didn't know there was a thing called activism. I didn't know there was a thing called feminism. I just knew that, I used to say this very cliche words that, right now, I’m like never, never. I used to say, l want to be the voice for the voiceless. You know how that has now changed and it’s like why do you want to be a voice for the voiceless? They don't have a voice? Did they tell you they don’t have a voice? Just pass on the mic, just create the platform. If they don’t have access to a space you have? Make sure they have that access. I think that’s how it developed, but l can’t pinpoint exactly when I felt I was going to stand up for this!

I guess one of the fellowships that you have mentioned, the Moremi Fellowship, that we're going to talk about later. That is the one that really opened my mind to go like “What? There’s a name to my frustrations. There's a name to this Lord. There's a name to this anger that I feel.”

Audrey: You went and got your answers from the Moremi Program. It's a program that identifies and invites young African women to participate in a year long development program. Could you tell me what your experience was and how this changed your outlook on some of the issues you're talking about?

Lusungu: Just before Moremi, when I went through university, I happened to do sociology and it was very theoretical. This issue about feminism, women's rights, very theoretical. Some of it was practical some of it was not. So when I saw this opportunity for a fellowship, I applied, I was like, this looks like a good space. So when I got there, it was the mixture of Pan-Africanism and feminism, Black feminism. It just challenged, everything for me, even the little things, Audrey, like relaxing my hair *laughs with Audrey*. I was just like “Wow, these are my people, this is my tribe, this is what I've been looking for.” These answers about structure and inequality.

Audrey: Who did you meet there?

Lusungu: There were other young, Black African women from 24 other countries, so one from each country. The program had curated some very strong Black women like Leymah Gbowee the Liberian activist. Just her walking  and listening to what she was saying. I was like, “Oh my god. I now understand my passion. I understand how I should channel it.” 

What does my identity as a Black woman mean? What are the things that are unique to my existence and how can I own those truths, right? And then the Pan-Africanism in it. Oh God, it was just a mixture of, it was an awakening for me. I came back home, I went bald, I cut my hair and I was on fire. *laughs* Of course I've moved from that very extreme spectrum.

Audrey: You've come back with fire from the Moremi Fellowship *both laugh*. I don't know if that's the time you came back and started your mentorship program, Growing Ambitions? Was that?

Lusungu: Yes

Audrey: Aha! That's an organization you founded, you want to create safe spaces for girls, mentorship and that's pretty much the information I'm getting from the website. But why do you think at that time that it was necessary to carve out these safe spaces for girls in Malawi? And tell me about the unsafe spaces that existed, that drove you to say, no, I have to do this?

Lusungu: The reason why I actually qualified for the Moremi Fellowship was because I had already started on the work on the foundation, although it had no structure, for teenage girls, especially the ones that got pregnant when they were teenagers. Mostly unwanted but sometimes wanted because of peer pressure.  I got interested in that, at that time I was working for an orphanage program. We had these girls in that program and the message was that once we support them with school fees and groceries, etc, they will want to go to school, right? We were sponsoring these girls and their rates of pregnancies were not going down.

I decided to start conversations to hear what it is really about, that’s when l started unveiling how most of them didn’t even have a choice even just having pleasurable sex. Even the way their parents treated them, even the role models around them. They didn’t see anyone going beyond maybe primary school or they didn’t see education as a key to poverty like we saw it. We were very prescriptive in that, that we did not offer them that space to express themselves and explain to us how they felt. I can say confidently right now that organizations like Growing Ambitions have mushrooms all over Malawi, which is, which can only be a good thing. But when we're starting out, we didn't have that many. The conversations that were very popular then were about experimental sex, not enough comprehensive sexual reproductive health, nothing to do with feminism, of course not feminism as the name, but feminist conversations as the adjective. Right now if you talk to the girls, they are very fired up.  Now they're learning from each other. They are assertive. They're confident. Right now we have about 50 girls in our program.

Audrey: That is so, so impressive. I was just thinking, when people talk about the teen pregnancies, the girl is usually described as not well-mannered and we shame her and there is no support for them from the community, or even their families. Yet, as you say, many times when the girl is pregnant, it's from rape from a family member, a neighbor or someone close to them. Even when it's consensual, there's no comprehensive sexual education. You're thinking about a lot of this in your work. Tell me about how these two relate.

Lusungu: Exactly. It's how the patriarchy works, right? Because when you hear about teenage pregnancies, you hear about rape, you rarely see a picture of the perpetrator unless we make noise about it, where's the perpetrator? Why are you putting the picture of a girl who's pregnant? Who made this girl pregnant? Even when we're talking about child marriages, where are the men that are marrying these girls? If we say it's 50%, where are they? Where are they?  I just feel like it's the way the patriarchy works, right? That our bodies are very much like objects in that they are very much policed. If  a girl gets pregnant, she faces backlash, she's called loose etc. And yet a man all the time is taught to experiment, have fun. Who are they going to experiment on? They're going out and doing all these experiments on girls who do not give informed consent.

‘Cause I always questioned this thing about consent to say, okay, sometimes we just say, oh, it was consensual so it's fine. But was it informed? Did this girl know that she has option A, B and C? If she did not know, then it's not informed consent and it should not be tolerated. So I just feel like we, as a society have a lot to do in terms of placing the responsibility and blame right where it lies. And it is on people who make girls pregnant. It is on the men who rape, it is not on the girls or the women. 

Audrey: That's absolutely correct. There's also the fact that children need information. They need to know about informed consent. They need to know how their body works and what's right for them and what's not right for them. That's something I think about a lot, but let's come back to your upbringing. You were telling me how you were exposed to different inequalities, when you’d go with your Dad to the field when he was working. How much influence has your family had on your activism and how do they respond to it? Maybe they support it. How do they do that?

Lusungu: Actually, one of the most interesting things my dad told me was “Lusu I am so I'm so glad I raised you the way I raised you. You're strong, you're independent, but sometimes I regret. I feel like you are too independent and this feminst stuff” *laughs*. I was like, I didn't realize there was supposed to be a degree of independence. So to mention, my family is supportive to the extent that they can be because I come from a very religious family. My mom is a pastor and not just a pastor, a prophetess. And my dad, as far as I  remember, he's always been an elder in church and my sister is a pastor's wife. So, to just find that balance *laughs*, for example, when I go on the streets,demonstrating, my dad would be like, “please, okay, you can go, but please stand in the back.” “Oh please don't use our surname.”  I am like hello I will say I am Lusungu Kalanga *laughs*.

When they give these instructions and then they see me, for example, if they see me on TV or they see me somewhere they'll say, “Oh Lusu, this is dangerous”  but I can see some sort of pride in their eyes. They're like, “Oh, we are proud of you.” But at the same time, for example, if I'm talking about  legalizing abortions, they're like, “okay, we are Christians.” But I'm like, it's about human rights come on now! When I'm talking about LGBTQI+ rights, they're supportive to the extent that they can be. 

Audrey: Let’s talk about the protests again. I was listening to your podcast Feministing while Malawian, and you were talking about the protest, which is called take it to the streets. It was a protest against violence against women. In this season we are talking about the #MeToo movement on the continent, and one thing that has become more common is women's uprising by protests online and also offline that's, going to the street. Even before we go deeper into that, l wanted to discuss street harassment, which l know you’ve been talking about a lot, how it limits women’s freedom. You’re walking home, you’re walking out enjoying the day then you hear “Hey baby! Hey sweetie” and other disgusting things. Followed by a whistle and it’s so annoying and even scary. If you don’t respond or you maybe respond, you never know what can really trigger violence at that moment and you’re just afraid. What’s your experience of this?

Lusungu: I don’t even know where to start. Every time I'm on the streets, for example, if I’m taking a walk for exercise or I’m running l have to brace myself. You always breathe in when, you go out and breathe out when you come home. There’s never been a time where there’s no street harassment. l usually tell this story of when l put my friend and l in danger. We were walking as an exercise, then there was this car that slowed down with two very drunk men and of course a woman was driving. This man takes his upper body out and he  starts speaking all this nonsense, commenting on our bodies, questioning why we are exercising, etc. I'm left-handed and I'm also a bit short-tempered when such things happen.

Audrey: A bit?

*both laugh*

Lusungu: But, on this day I picked up a rock, it happened within maybe 10 seconds. I picked up a rock and I threw it.

Audrey: Hey!

Lusungu: Of course, I missed, but I hit the car. So they stopped and then they came out and actually threatened to physically harm us. So we're lucky that the were other people around that way, hearing this, that didn't feel the need to comment when we're being harassed. But at least they tried to protect us when these guys were like, “Why did you do that?” And so I was like, you know what you did, you are harassing us and you made me angry. Then I realized and started feeling very guilty because I had put myself and my friend in danger. But then at the same time, I was like, I am the one who is carrying this burden of feeling guilty, but they are the ones who harassed me and then on top of that threatened to cause physical harm to us. So it's like, Oh my gosh, we are stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to street harassment. You don't respond, you can be in danger, you respond, you can be in danger.

Audrey: I follow many conversations where African women are speaking out against, all kinds of harassment, street harassment, sexual violence things like that. I'm seeing that the internet is becoming an outlet where many women are feeling like this is a safe space for us to talk about what we're going through, especially where judicial processes are not accessible or when they're even abusive to survivors. So online activism, which was once seen as so elitist for people who have money, maybe they're becoming important organizing spaces for protests, but I'd like to hear your opinion on the two, the street protests, like the one you took part in and the impact of the online space on this march.

Lusungu: Actually, the take it to the streets protests generated from online protests, right. The #TakeItToTheStreets. Of course, for example, in Malawi, this particular one was triggered by a young lady from the other city, Blantyre. She was stripped of her clothing and sexually harassed because she was apparently wearing a miniskirt. There ar always all these cases of rape, children, young women, old women, it is everyone. I remember it was the president of a young feminist network, a really, really young 22 year old fierce feminist that I also look up to. She said, “Should we take it to the streets?” From there we started saying, let's take it to the streets.

The organizing for the offline protest started right there online. We took it from Twitter, we took it to WhatsApp. On WhatsApp, more structured. These are the materials, so and so has said they can provide these etc. Then the physical meetings happened. On the day of the protest, in terms of visibility and reaching other African feminists even, northern feminist joining in retweeting helped us to amplify the voice of what was happening like we always do. For example, when #MeToo happens in different countries, in such a Women's March happening in different countries. So I feel both spaces serve their purpose and both spaces are really important. 

Audrey: You were handling so many things last year and the pandemic is just putting this extra layer of stress and pain. How are you taking care of yourself? I know you have said this year you're not carrying the world on your shoulders, so how are you doing that? How are you actively saying that, this is how I'm caring for me.

Lusungu: In my kind of work, and especially now that I've moved more into, really working on issues of norm change in terms of violence against women and girls and also supporting survivors. The vicarious trauma is always there. Because, you are experiencing whatever they're experiencing. I think one of my self-care processes is to read. I like to detach and disappear. I'll be honest, Audrey, I really find non fiction hard to read.*laughs* It makes me, but I read it because if you're a feminist, you have to continuously learn, you have to continuously read, but I enjoy fiction. I like disappearing in different words. I must say a lot of African writers are really doing the work in terms of writing and a lot of women writers, it's so nice. 

This year I'm going to therapy. I've always wanted to go back to therapy because I feel it's very beneficial. I talk a lot to myself. I feel like therapy is gonna also help me this year. I also do a lot of gardening, l took it for my mom. I am a plant mum. I've killed a couple, but the ones that are alive are surviving and then outside l also have a flower garden that I like to just disappear in.

Audrey: That is so, so beautiful. Yes to therapy and RIP to Lusungu’s few  plants that have died, we hope the rest will grow. *both laugh* Just to wind up, do you have a message for other women who are driving the #MeToo movement in Africa?

Lusungu: Firstly, to say, take care of yourself. Let's take care of each other. Self-care is an act of resistance. I like articles and some of the guidelines that one of my favorite African feminists has produced, Jessica Horn, self-care and not just self-care, but also collective care. Cause we're in this together, don't carry the load on your own. It's okay to switch off and say I need to prioritize myself because I find that a lot of activists don't do that because we are driven by, “we understand the urgency.”  We cannot pour into the world when we are empty. So it's always important to always keep taking a step back and prioritize our self-care and also collective care. Honestly, Black women have been carrying the world for such a long time. I feel like that should be prioritized.

Audrey: I'd like you to tell people who are listening about your podcast and about your amazing work and where they can find you online.

Lusungu: You can find our podcast Feministing while Malawian on Twitter, it's @FeministingWM. For the work of Growing Ambitions, you can find us on Twitter as well,it's @growingambition. My personal handle on Twitter is @LusuKalanga. I'm not on Facebook, l’m very much a Twitter person. Feel free to connect with me there.

Audrey: You’ve  been listening to Power of the Streets, a podcast series brought to you by Human Rights Watch. I’m Audrey Kawire Wabwire.

That’s the end of our show. Check out our show notes for more about Lusungu and her work at Growing Ambitions and her podcast, Feministing while Malawian. 

In the next episode we take the conversation to Uganda. 

To learn more about Human Rights Watch visit HRW.org. Follow us on Twitter @HRW and on Instagram @humanrightswatch for updates about the show. 

Join the conversation using the hashtag Power of the Streets and share your thoughts with Lusungu or any of our other guests, and you can tell us how you’re speaking truth to power. 

Our producer is Andisiwe May and this is a Volume production. 

The main theme song, Au Revoir is produced by Young OG Beats.

Till next time, thank you for listening.