Seeking Justice for Syria Archive

العربية

Balkees Jarrah (00:00:00):

Just introduce yourself and tell us who you are and what you do.

Ameenah Sawwan (00:00:05):

I'm Ameenah Sawwan, I'm a campaigner and activist. I come from the suburbs of Western Damascus in Syria. I left Syria almost in early 2014, and I had a very long journey before finally settling down in Berlin in April, 2016. Currently I'm the justice and accountability campaigner at the Syria Campaign. I've been working for the Syria Campaign since 2018. And currently I'm very close to the end of my ethics and politics bachelor here at Bard College Berlin. The Syria campaign is a human rights organization that supports Syrians and their struggle for freedom and democracy since 2014. And in the Syria campaign, we create campaigns and creative interventions. In the Syria campaign, we create campaigns and creative interventions to support the Syrian civil society in Syria and diaspora. The Syria campaign was launched in the, on the third anniversary of, the Syria campaign was launched on the third anniversary of the Syrian uprising in March, 2014 at the time when Syria was not kind of on headlines and not on the top agendas of countries around the world and the Syria campaign wanted to do what could be done to refocus global attention and action on Syria. I know a lot of things has changed since then the emergence of ISIS, the so-called refugee crisis reaching European shores and involvement of even more countries bombing Syria.

Balkees Jarrah:

And Ameenah, what motivates you to do this work?

Ameenah Sawwan (00:01:50):

That's a big question.  I mean, when the Syrian revolution started in 2011, I was in my early twenties. The revolution has shifted my entire life. It was a moment that has changed me, changed my life and changed the life of millions of Syrian people forever. And we needed this revolution because we were in dire need of rebellion against the liars and years accumulated injustice, abuse and corruption. It took place everywhere in Syria. The faith of, that we, one day might won peace, that’s what keeps my hopes high. They say sometimes that Assad has won the war or the so-called victory in Syria, I hope that one day, we will win the peace we will win Syria back and win a type of justice that we're looking for.

Balkees Jarrah (00:02:55):

When you say you hope that you'll win Syria back one day, what do you mean?

Ameenah Sawwan (00:02:55):

I was one of the ones who have the owner to take part in demonstrations back in 2011 to use I was able to use my voice straight out loud against oppression, and they know in our worst nightmares, we would have had not imagined all of this happening to us. And we had a lot of uncertainties in the last 10 years. Today I tell myself if one thing is certain it's that the revolution that transformed us as individuals never comes to an end, if we can ever see the revolution through it's like its greatest achievement will have been the change us for the better and winning Syria back for me means that one day we will be carrying all the things that we learned, carrying all of the knowledge and the things that we were able to achieve in diaspora and come back to Syria the Syria that we want a free and democratic Syria.

Balkees Jarrah (00:04:05):

 What was your experience like in the courtroom? Were you able to follow the sessions very well?

Ameenah Sawwan (00:04:15):

Okay, so, I have despite how I think about the trial as being a major step and being a major, affirmation of the Syrian regime violations, but there were a lot of things that could have been done better. They're a huge barrier when it comes to the language. And the clarity on why the interpretation could not been provided into Arabic. I mean, this is a trial on Syrian on Syria and on Syria state torture committed in Syria where Arabic is being spoken. And, but, unfortunately, the sessions were not interpreted. And that was really frustrating for me. Only the final session of the verdict was interpreted and that made a huge difference for me. I was able to follow everything. I speak German to a certain level but, it was like very difficult in regular sessions to understand anything. It's even difficult I think for Germans to understand what is being said as it's a kind of a legal and formal language. I'm really disappointed by the lack of access to court sessions archive.

(00:05:50). When you look at international trials or tribunals, you will find that they have their channels on YouTube and they have even the whole sessions recorded. I understand that for several witnesses it won't be possible to record the sessions, but I don't really understand how things work in Germany. And I would appreciate if they have more clarity, for example, it's just not very clear why interpretation is not provided, is it in the law, or they don't have the resources. But it's, to be honest, very disappointing. I don't feel that the procedure is being inclusive when it comes to this. And I wish that even written reports of the sessions archive are being published by the court itself, instead of expecting this to be done by others or other organizations, who might be even writing a shorter reports of this. But I think that would be the court's responsibility.

Balkees Jarrah (00:07:00)

So how did you make sure to get a sense of what was happening in those sessions, where there was no translation or interpretation? How did you figure out what was going on?

Ameenah Sawwan (00:07:17):

It was difficult to figure out what was going on when I attended part of the sessions when I was there. But like following the trial all along the way since April like I was following social media, other reports by organizations, media, sometimes media coverage and activists were attending the trial sessions writing their like feedback and what happened. So, this is generally what I was able to follow mostly actually Syrian efforts to report back. So that's good actually. And great to hear actually, and, but on the other hand it is frustrating, and I wish that more efforts are being done here.

Balkees Jarrah (00:08:13)

Can you paint a scene for us of what it was like inside the courtroom?

Ameenah Sawwan (00:08:20):

The courtroom has changed on the day of the verdict because the, the German courts wanted to have a bigger space for people to attend. And they had installed kind of these transparent walls like thin walls, plastic walls for like for safety, which made me actually feel weird. I felt that I needed to see people, I needed human interaction, and it was a really sad moment. I was looking around and I recognize, I saw people I recognized I came that day and queued in the very early morning with others, and we were discussing justice and accountability. And what are our aspiration towards this case?

(00:09:22) There were a lot of media interests. The judge came, it was a very quiet moment. We stood up. And then she was reading the verdict. She read, she read it in summary and she read the sentence and the interpreter was reading after her in Arabic. And I did not imagine that it's going to happen this quickly. She started actually with the sentence and then we sat down and then she was reading. The judge was reading all the reasons that led to this sentence. For three hours, she did not stop. They were three intensive hours of her speaking about the beginning of the regime violence, responding to demonstrations in Douma and other Syrian cities and towns. It was really intensive and I was looking around and see that everyone is really overwhelmed. It was really a difficult moment. She brought everything that happened in 2011 and 2012 and kind of throw to our faces. And it's there. These are the facts that we know, but it's, they're very difficult when, when we hear out loud.

(00:10:58) It was really difficult to hear this verdict when more than 100,000 Syrians are still detained or disappeared that are the crimes that the judge has documented and mentioned in detail in this trial are ongoing to this day, even to that day. So, it was a lot of conflict feeling. And I was thinking about the bravery of Syrian survivors who were witnesses and plaintiffs in this trial, those who have told their stories, demanded justice and answers, and will continue to hold this burden. It's a huge responsibility and burden that they're doing. So, I had really complex feelings.

Balkees Jarrah (00:11:52)

You said you had something that you remembered that you wanted to share?

Ameenah Sawwan (00:12:00):

Mainly on the personal level. I thought that, I mean, justice is not easy to achieve like I keep asking myself what's justice and I, I keep always saying that justice and accountability, failure we're facing, or if I can call it a failure is not only about Syria, it's really beyond. Because like in this world we're living in, we're facing a problem with the international system. We look at previous crime that never ended with a closure that victims and their families have wanted. So, justice is a very long term, a huge term and its complicated multi-layer process. And this is how I see it. It has many phases and not only including the legal steps in a courthouse, for me, preserving the narrative is doing justice for Syria. And that's what TSC is doing and that is what the Syria Campaign is doing that kind of represents the type of this justice, fighting misinformation and disinformation by the Russians is justice. Owning our narrative is doing justice to Syria and all Syrians.

(00:13:30) So far, don't have many choices. We have either this tiny or small step, or basically nothing like really nothing for hundreds of thousands of victims and who suffered a variety of violations. And I'm hoping that we're having more strategic investigations and more resources being put in international crimes units in countries. I'm hoping that strategic investigations and resources would be being put in international crimes units in countries that work under the principle of universal jurisdictions, cases such as Al-Khatib. And it's also really important when it comes to the court and the trials that individuals feel that they're involved and with their families and their local groups in the whole investigation process. And that all the related information is an imperative that must be implemented kind of through a mechanism that provides the maximum amount of justice for the survivors and the least possible negative effects that may affect them as a result of the documentation or investigations process, or even within the trial sessions, because I've been there, I've been in Koblenz and I've seen witnesses speaking, it's devastating. It was devastating for me to hear that. And deep inside I was, I was wondering like how courageous and how difficult for them to speak out. And I hope like really deep inside that these courageous witnesses are receiving all the support that they need. The last, but not the least, it's really important to look into achieving a more comprehensive vision of justice that should not be limited to legal complaints or legal trials, rather it must in the interest of creating social economic protection network for survivors in which the official and the civil society groups and institutions will take their responsibilities and play a role in protecting and supporting them.

Balkees Jarrah:

What were your expectations when you started demonstrating back in 2011?

Ameenah Sawwan (00:16:26):

I think we had high expectations back in 2011. We were really, they were really taken down by what happened and what we've witnessed in the last 10 years. It's been a really, really difficult journey where all over the world away from our areas we're separated. We have inside Syria, we have different areas inside Syria and different groups in diaspora, but we're still trying to make things happen, trying to preserve our narrative trying to work with, along with survivors and families to achieve justice — any kind and any means of justice that they want, and they feel this is the right justice and the right closure for them.

(00:17:26) For me justice is Syria without Assad and justice is Syria safe for us Syrians who were forcefully, forced to leave Syria, and justice will remain incomplete until it's targeting all the parties in Syria. The Syrian regime has committed the majority of the violations, yes. But we must also not forget the crimes committed in different areas by ISIS, by HTS, Nusra, SDF, Jaish al-Islam, and also the so-called national army in areas like freed we want justice for everyone and that's the Syria that I hope that we could see maybe the next 10 years or 20 years, hopefully.

Balkees Jarrah (00:18:20):

What are your fondest memories of Syria?

Ameenah Sawwan (00:18:24):

For me, Syria means family. My best memories of Syria are around my family. In my hometown in Western Damascus were gathered together talking and eating the food that was made by my mother in the fields, hopefully in a picnic. I have not been there for seven years now and I hope that I could see this scene happening all over again. The scene is not going to be complete though, it’s going to be missing my brother and my sister-in-law and their son Ahmed, who were killed in 2013, who will be forever remembered. But we hopefully will be there.

العربية

Bente Scheller (00:00:00)

This is Bente Scheller, I’m head of the Middle East department of Heinrich Boll foundation, which is a German political foundation, close to the German Green party. I'm based in Berlin, but for the past seven years, I was based in Beirut, running our office there that is taking care of Lebanon as well as Syria. And I also used to be in Syria as a researcher, but also as part of the German embassy in previous years.

Balkees Jarrah:

And what motivates you on a personal level to do what you're doing at the foundation.

Bente Scheller (00:00:45):

Well, I find it very inspiring. I think it is great to see that people are coming together around certain topics and that these are international interests. It might always feel, if you're in a certain context, as if you're alone. But I think with the work that we do all over the world, we see there are many like-minded people and I find it very encouraging and also very inspiring. I think I learned so much being abroad from the different groups and activists and artists we have been working with that I think I'm really very lucky with my job, even though many of the topics that we're dealing with of course are difficult. And in times of authoritarianism coming back, it's much more difficult for many of the activists that live for fighting for free speech, for justice, etcetera.

Balkees Jarrah:

I was reading one of the pieces that you've written recently, where you talk about the recent protests in Syria. And you describe in your words, the suppression of the uprising, which started in 2011 as a repetition of history, only on a much greater scale. Why do you describe it as a repetition of history?

Bente Scheller (00:02:16):

Because we see many moments in which Syrians actually felt they had to fight for the rights and in the end that they could not. I mean, they always reached the limits of what the state was going to allow them, what the Syrian regime was going to allow them. And I think this is mainly a situation in which Syrians didn't step down. They continued asking for their rights, even though they had these previous experiences in which the response was violent. And they knew probably what was coming over them, but they didn't give in because they learned also from the past that it doesn't make sense to give in because in the end, the regime is not open for reforms and it will not grant any rights.

Balkees Jarrah:

And what stood out to you the most about the Syrian government's reaction to the, those protests that began in 2011?

Bente Scheller (00:03:15):

I think this very sneaky way of enhancing violence step-by-step. I mean, from the beginning they were shooting at protesters, they were arresting people, but I think they managed to keep it at a level that slightly increased only so it would not be noticed and the media coverage, and that was one of the aspects. But later on, looking back at it, when all those photos were published or became known, that are known as the Caesar files, I found it incredible that one of the most prominent and first victims of death by torture, the 13 year old Hamza Altib, when his photo appeared among the Caesar photos, you saw that he had gotten a number already, and this was something that we had not seen with political prisoners dying in detention before. It had happened before that people were tortured to death in Syria, but I was never aware of a case where you had a number given to them. And his number was a low number. So also indicated they started counting from the very beginning as if they wanted to plan for a long-term strategy of this malicious numbering of people turning victims into numbers and keeping a record of it.

Balkees Jarrah:

Where do you think things went wrong in the international community's response to the Syrian conflict?

Bente Scheller (00:04:53):

I think possibly things went already wrong before the Syrian revolution even started, because the discussion around what had happened in Libya was very fresh. And there were many people criticizing that the intervention in Libya had not delivered what they were hoping for. But Libya was a different case. And therefore it was not really satisfying to hear that as an explanation, people also would reference the US led interventions in Afghanistan and Iraq earlier that obviously had gone wrong, but also these, the circumstances were completely different and therefore it was not really fair to compare it. However, in the debate, I think when we saw the Syria revolution, the first that I heard in policymaker circles was, well, we're not going to do another intervention because interventions never do anything right and they will not have a positive outcome but we will closely monitor the situation. And I think diplomatically, that was a mistake. This is not the way you should frame it. You should rather turn it around and say, we'll closely monitor the situation and then we will consider which steps should be taken. By talking about intervention as something that would not take place, I think the diplomatic power and leverage was curbed from the very beginning. And that might have been the worst because it signaled to Assad that that basically he could act however he wants it and he would not be held accountable.

Balkees Jarrah:

And what role did the security council play or not play in your point of view from your point of view?

Bente Scheller (00:06:37):

Here from the beginning, the Russian government held a protective hand over the Syria file. They blocked most of the UN resolutions that were put forward, or I think they blocked half of the Syria revolutions that were put forward. And with the others, either they watered them down, or if there was a resolution, they didn't follow up on them being implemented or they blocked the implementation. So, this was extremely important for Syria. This is how it could get away with a lot of things. And at the same time, the UN security council upheld the fiction basically, or the imagination, the pretense that there was a political process in which the security council was relevant. The Geneva process was there. So, these two elements together delayed any kind of action, mainly because of Russia's role.

Balkees Jarrah:

In another interview that you've given. You mentioned that Syria is a place where international norms and international law was, or is being dismantled. Can you talk a little bit about what you mean?

Bente Scheller (00:07:55):

Yeah. I think there are so many examples for this in Syria, but let's start with the most striking one chemical weapons use, chemical weapons have been internationally banned for so long, and there is the protocol against chemical weapons against their possession, their trade, and of course their use and Syria never officially had this chemical weapons program, but then used chemical weapons. The regime used them against the population in Syria. And all that happened was that by a deal between the U.S. and Russia, it had to turn in these weapons and then it could access the chemical weapons convention. So this is really an example of things going wrong from the very beginning and where you really would say this should have been handled in a different way. And in the end, the worst was that even after all this, the regime used chemical weapons, again, it continued to do so.

So, I think that really illustrates very, very important and for good reasons, important international norm that of banning chemical weapons use was violated. And it was not only violated once. And then there was action and accountability. No, it continued to be violated. And therefore, I think that demonstrates very well how other States and other tyrants might take this as an example, if Syria can get away with it, they might feel encouraged to do the same.

Balkees Jarrah:

So, I think I was asking you whether there were any memories from your time in Damascus that's stood out to you, that have stayed with you.

Bente Scheller (00:10:00):

Indeed. There is a memory that stays with me and I have to think a lot about it even now, because it has to do with a political prisoner who was released from prison while I was there. And Anwar al-Bunni, one of the Syrian human rights lawyers with whom I was in contact and [name undetermined], another lawyer who unfortunately was forcibly disappeared during the war, they wanted me to see him and meet him. And so we sat there and the cafe and he was sitting across the table and he could hardly look me in the eyes because he couldn't really lift his hat. He was looking to the ground, he couldn't lift up his head. And when he knew that I was German, he said, “Oh, what an irony,” And I asked, “what is the irony?” And he said, “that the first person from abroad that I should meet after being released from prison after all these years is a German.” And then he pointed to his neck that he couldn't move and said, “you know, the torture technique with which they did this to me, we call it the German chair.” And so of course that was quite — quite a striking opening of a meeting. And I felt very bad and I felt really honored and humbled that he shared this very personal and strong episode with me, even though he had not really met me before.

Balkees Jarrah:

Wow, thank you for sharing that Bente and I mean, because you mentioned Anwar Al-Bunni, we wanted to also talk to you a little bit about the German role in pursuing investigations and prosecutions for crimes committed in Syria. They, the judicial authorities in Germany started quite early actually investigating, what do you make of the fact that this was a priority for the federal police and prosecutors at such an early stage in the conflict?

Bente Scheller (00:12:12):

I think it was a priority because there was a long history of human rights violations in Syria, and particularly of another uprising. The one that took place in the late seventies, early eighties, where the Syrian regime back then on the father of the current president Hafez, al-Assad had responded with all brutality and many people disappeared. And until now their fate is unknown. And I think this historic experience or the knowledge about this, so made evident something similar could happen again. And it was absolutely worthwhile starting to collect information at this early stage also that the Syrian regime had a security apparatus that was much bigger than the one of most other States of the region with so many different branches and competing branches of the Syrian intelligence. It was a complex system and therefore, I think it might have been another motivation to keep a close eye on what was happening and what we could learn about the apparatus, how it was acting in the situation.

Balkees Jarrah:

Now, just shifting a bit to the German foreign ministry, German foreign policy. Do you think that Germany is doing enough at this stage in the conflict when we were talking about torture and serious detention centers, for, for example, you, you may be aware of an effort by the Netherlands and Canada to pursue a case at the international court of justice about torture and to hold Syria accountable for these practices. Do you feel that beyond the criminal cases that are taking place in Germany that the government should be doing more? And if yes, what, what does that look like concretely?

Bente Scheller (00:14:19):

Well, I appreciate it very much. So the efforts of the Netherlands and Canada, I think they are raising very important cases and possibly Germany could have joined these, but I'm not sure whether that really would help the cases and make them stronger. So I think in a number of ways, the German foreign ministry has acted really, really well yet the impact is not there because of the international setting. What I think they have done well is being very outspoken in the United Nations. So while they were as non-permanent member part of the security council, I think also they put a lot of effort in supporting people who suffered from the conflict, as well as in trying to investigate certain elements around the conflict like chemical weapons use investigations were massively supported. The triple I-M mechanism at the UN that basically also collects information and evidence on war crimes to enable States to pursue them. Germany is very engaged in all of these efforts, but of course what would have been needed for Syria would be a security council that would have acted differently and that would have prevented large scale human rights violations in Syria from taking place. And this —  Germany didn't achieve it, and nobody else achieved it and looking back, and also in that situation, we always commented on possibilities to get more involved, to do something differently, but then it's about the political will. And I think that comes from the political parties from the government and the government of Germany could never muster any courage or decision to really implement that would have changed the overall path of Syria.

Balkees Jarrah:

And more broadly, just thinking ahead to the future, I wanted to ask you what's next for you with respect to, to work on Syria at the foundation. And then more generally what your hopes are for Syria in 10 years from now?

Bente Scheller (00:16:52):

At the foundation, we keep up the work that we are doing in terms of helping for a more informed debate. So we have shared the stories of many Syrians. We have invited them to speak for themselves and we're continuing to do so, because I think it is very important to keep that on the agenda and not let it just go because it's a conflict that people think they can't solve. There are so many aspects that need to be addressed. And also the connection between the different diasporas of Syria is something relevant. And we're trying to work on this. We are doing it from Berlin, but also from our office in Beirut. And I think documentation efforts are at the center because we see after the regime claims already, it has won the war. Now it is trying to win the war on narratives. It's trying to steal the narrative from people who suffered a lot in Syria. And this is really a second time, then they are being betrayed. So we're trying to work on this, keeping up the memory, sharing the stories and also highlighting. It's not over, it's not a closed file it's going on and it's never really too late to act. It gets more pressing with a time rather than it should be forgotten.

Balkees Jarrah:

And what's your hope for Syria in the next 10 years?

Bente Scheller (00:18:14):

I obviously hope that Syria will get the chance to be free. That Syrians, will have the chance to be free and design their own future. And I think it looks very, very difficult because the international will to change anything. And the situation is hardly visible. Also Assad doesn't show, any sign of stepping back or his supporters also don't therefore, possibly nothing will change, but I think if something changed, it's really absolutely striking what we can see because the Syrian activism has completely spun me. I'm so impressed by all the efforts, Syrian in Syria, but also in the different other contexts in which then they were forced to live, have been doing. They're so active, so creative and so committed. And even though they didn't have really a chance for many at least couldn't build what they wanted in terms of a political future, but they haven't given up. And that I deeply admire therefore if I had a wish, it would be that they get a chance to do what they always set out for to build a better future for their country.

العربية

Wafa Ali Mustafa (00:00:00):

My name is Wafa Ali Mustafa. I'm Syrian, I'm a journalist and activist, and I come from a small town near the city of Hama in Syria called Masyaf. I come from a quite, I would say, political liberal family. I have myself, and I have two other sisters, and I don't know how much can I say. It's never easy. It's just every time I'm overwhelmed by, I don't know, images, and sounds, and voices, and everything. I just now see everything, my whole life when I'm about to say anything.

I think everyone in Syria knows that politics weren't something we talk about, weren't something you hear about actually in the street, at school, even at home, because walls have ears. But my dad has always been political. We've always talked. Even when I didn't actually, even when I didn't really understand what was going on, I could sense that something was always happening in our place.

But then, it's not only my dad, it's the whole life I've lived. I mean, I've spent like 10 years going with my dad every week, from Masyaf to Damascus, every Thursday after school to participate in protests that supported the Palestinian coups, Iraq, and obviously all was about other countries and other places, but we all knew that it was also about this country, and about us. So, I guess I was ten or nine when I first went on a protest with my dad. And we did this ritual for years.

I was in my third year, the revolution started, I stopped my studies. There was a call for this strike called the dignity strike and I participated. I just didn’t go to exams; I didn't go to school anymore. And I got arrested in the beginning of September. Actually, today is the anniversary, a very nice memory. Just like today, I guess, after midnight, I got arrested in 2011 with my sister, my cousin, and my two friends. And at the same time, my dad was also arrested in Hama. So, my mom had her husband and her two daughters actually arrested in two different cities. Yeah, we got released, after my sister got released the next day, I got released a few days later.

(00:03:00) Some of them were there for my whole life, some just disappeared after a while, I guess. They just maybe fought over politics or whatever with my dad. But there was always a discussion in our place. My dad wasn't like, "You shouldn't be listening to that,” you know? He wouldn’t, I was very young, he wouldn't say, "Sit and listen," but I was obviously curious, because this is the surrounding, I grew up having and living with. And I guess it was that moment when I was wondering, so if we are in support, why don't we do nothing? And I guess it was the moment where my dad said something very direct, like, "Yeah, the government that rules this country pretends that they are in support, and that they are doing much, but they are actually not." And that was very brief, but that was I guess the most direct moment where my dad told me something like that. And then, I guess, I, it just developed with the years. And yeah, I mean, but also, there were many, many elements. Because at school, everyone, even teachers and stuff, Masyaf is a very small town, so everyone knows what other people’s, like I don’t know, political opinions.

(00:04:33) So everyone at school knew that my dad was against the regime, and my dad was arrested in the year 2004, I guess. Something happened in Masyaf, and it wasn’t, it's difficult to explain, but some kind of fight happened. The reasons, the direct reasons, weren't political, but because of that, many people were arrested, and my dad was amongst those. Everyone at school was like, "Yeah, your dad is arrested because he's against the regime, and because he did that and that." And so, it wasn't only something I knew. Everyone at school knew that my dad was against the regime, and it wasn't obviously only my dad. There was a group of people in Masyaf who were very famous for, that they meet, and they are against the regime, and they do stuff. But I guess, yeah, it wasn’t like, I cannot say that, or at least I just feel like it's not fair to say that I remember the moment. I just have a sense that it was the year 2000, and because of the moment of the Intifada.

(00:05:57) I don't even remember the moment the revolution started in Syria, or I don't even remember like that I was sitting, and then I made the decision that I will just go and protest. It wasn't like that. Because before the revolution started in Syria, because everything happened in Daraa, and even in Damascus, there were these demonstrations in front of the Egyptian, and Tunisian, and then the Libya embassy. And for me, I've always said that the protests in front of the Libyan embassy was very crucial, because it was the moment where the police attacked us so we were there for two days.

The first day was fine, but then the next day, the second day wasn't actually. People started chanting something against Gaddafi, obviously, but we and the police knew that it wasn't only about him and about what's going on in Libya. And at some point, they felt very attacked, so they actually attacked the protest, and many people were arrested, and many people were beaten. And I've mentioned that many times, I was slapped by an officer, because actually at that point, I had a necklace of the Palestinian map. I've had this for 10 years before that day. And he slapped me in the face and said that, "You Palestinians shouldn't interfere in a Syrian political situation." Something like that, because he thought that I was Palestinian.

(00:07:37) So for me, that was the moment where I felt that it started in Syria. This is not going to just happen and then we're all going to forget about it. And actually, yeah, I mean, a few days later, everything started in Daraa and in Damascus. And It wasn't a question for me. I don't even remember. I don't even remember the first time. I don't remember what did I do, I don't remember details. I just remember that I was there. It wasn't a question. I didn't think whether I should do it or not. I didn't even discuss with my family or anything, because I was back then in Damascus, and my family, my mom, my dad, my youngest sister were in Masyaf. But me and my younger sister were in Damascus, so I didn't even call my dad. We didn't discuss anything. I remember that when the revolution happened in Egypt, I was in Masyaf, and my dad and I didn't actually sleep for days. We were actually, if he goes to sleep, I would stay awake, and if I go to sleep, we did shifts, like literally because we were very excited and obviously Egypt was also something very ... I don't know, for my dad was also something very important.

(00:09:14) So we spend days just waiting, actually, watching the news and waiting for the moment. But then I went back to Damascus and I just, I don't remember that I even called my dad when everything had started in Syria. I just, I just, went on a protest and then I guess, first time I remembered that I called him was after, on the 25th of March, when the protest was near the Umayyad mosque, because I actually, I was about to get arrested there and, yeah, for some reason they knew that I was from Masyaf and fortunately for all of the silly, stupid reasons, they just let me go. Because I was actually from Masyaf, so they assumed that I am pro the-regime and fortunately there is like, for years on checkpoints, I was let go because I was from Masyaf. They would think that, "Yeah, I mean, she's from Masyaf. They are loyal." And even sometimes in protests, like I was protesting like every day, in Midan, which is like a neighborhood in Damascus, and it is a conservative area, but I was there every day and they would see me and they would never suspect that I was protesting, the minute they see that I'm from Masyaf.

(00:10:50) Yeah. And that actually happened. But I mean, it's almost funny. When I got arrested, I was beaten even more because I was from Masyaf. Yeah, definitely. Because I was ... the question was always like, "What did you need?" Like, "You're from Masyaf. How come? How dare you?" And, "Why are you protesting with these people from this and this?" Like, they are not ... things that they tell everyone who is not actually from like, Damascus, for example. And even like, during the interrogations, the officer was always like, "How did you ..." like, "Weren't you scared to go to Midan? You know they are Sunnis, they will kill you," blah, blah, blah. I don't even, I don’t even, like, usually I don't really talk about this because it was really funny for me. And I was quite young, and I didn't actually know. And I actually, I told him that. My answer was, "Oh no, they are very nice. They are very good people and you should go there and see."

(00:12:00) And he didn't like that. And he kept calling me stupid because ... and at some point, he asked me like, "Are you really giving me these answers? Are you stupid? Why are you doing that?" And I just, I didn't know. And at some point, to be honest, I trying to pretend that I'm stupid because I thought that that would be better, if he thinks that I'm stupid, then obviously it's because he was actually asking me, why am I against the regime? And why don't I like the President? And I actually tried to explain, but he would beat me every time I say anything, so ... and then at some point I just said that "Okay, so let's play stupid game. I'm stupid. I don't know. And I think that everyone is nice." And this actually, it didn't work as well.

(00:12:58) I just thought that I was arrested for ... and unfortunately, this ... all Syrians feel the same. You feel that you've been arrested for a few days. It's not even worth talking about. Obviously, the crime is still a crime, but when you see people, been arrested for years, you just feel like, "I'm just, I'm not going to talk about it." But even after my dad got arrested, it's just … yeah, you know, it's not important anymore, because that at least it is the past, but it is the past against the fact that my dad is arrested, which is, the past, the present, and I hope it wouldn't be the future. But unfortunately, it seems like this is actually, this is the worst part. We are just— this uncertainty, we don't even know if ... I don't even know if I will spend my whole life talking about this, and waiting for my dad. But I hope not.

(00:14:08) It was actually, it was the Ramadan, and my dad was arrested. I was in Damascus with my sister, and then I knew, I learned that my dad was arrested from our home in Masyaf. But we knew actually at that point, who arrested him. It was a branch in Hama, and we knew that he's accused of supporting terrorists, who were actually people who fled Hama, after the regime attacked the city in Ramadan that year. And I mean, my Dad, at that point, did what everyone in Masyaf did. He just helped, like providing aid to people who fled from Hama, and he was arrested for that. But a few days later actually, so it was Ramadan, you know, and then it was Eid and my mom was like, "Just come back. We need to be together."

And it was ... I just couldn't. I told her that I cannot go back home until my dad is there. And I didn't, because usually even if I'm in Damascus, we go back to Masyaf to spend like, Ramadan and Eid together. But that year I couldn't. And so, at that point, I guess it was the first time there was like a protest after midnight, in Midan. And so, I went there with my cousin and the protest, as you know, was something like 20 seconds, maybe even less. And I had a friend who was calling me for days and asking me to meet. And I was like, for some reason, I just didn't. And I was like, "Yeah, I'm busy. Let's meet later," blah, blah, blah. And he called me while I was in the protest, and then my phone, I guess, I dropped my phone and then I just kept running.

(00:16:20) And then I just I guess ... I was with my cousin waiting in the Bab al salam Square and I was fixing my phone and stuff. And then the same friend started calling and I said, "Okay, let's ..." and it was at that point, it was something like 12:30, after midnight. And I was like, "Okay, just I'm in this place, just come." And then I was standing with my cousin there and it's tragic, you know, that moment was ... a lot happened. A friend of mine who was also in the protest passed by in a car and said, "Why are you here? Why are you still here?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm waiting for this guy. He keeps calling me and I just wanted to meet him before I go back." And then he said, "Let me take you home before you get arrested."

(00:17:25) And we laughed. And I said, "No, this is silly. I'm not going to get arrested, whatever." And then he left and this same friend, unfortunately, actually got arrested and was killed under torture two years later. But yeah, and then the same friend was calling me just, I was waiting for him with my cousin, and then a man, a huge man just came by and said, "Mrs. Wafa," I didn't even realize that he called me by my name, and I said, "Yes?" And then he said, "What are you doing here?" And I said, "Well, I'm waiting for a friend." And then he said, "Can you look back?" And then I did, and then they opened the car, like a van, and I see my friend there actually, blindfolded and handcuffed. And my answer was, "Yes, this is my friend." And then he said, "Let's go. Who is that?" I said, "This is my cousin," and then he told him, "Okay, so you'll come with us as well." So we were in the car and then I was very ... to be honest, I don't even know how that happened. I was very, very calm. And I said, "Can I know what's going on?" I, It's funny, I laugh now because I don't even know. I don't even, like ... I cannot understand where, how did I do that? I just said, "Can I know what's going on?"

(00:18:57) And then he said, "Well, of course you will know, because we've been trying to get you for days." And I said, "I don't understand what is the problem, let's discuss." And then he said, " We'll discuss later." And I said, "Okay, so where are we going?" And then he said, "We're going home." And I said, "Okay. So, we're going to my place? Shall I give you the address? "And then he says, "No, we know the address."

(00:19:24) But then, I guess in 2018, I joined Families For Freedom, which is a women-led movement whose relatives and loved ones are detained, or forcibly disappeared, or kidnapped, not only by Assad regime, but by ISIS, by Jaish Islam, by SDF. So, I guess the main idea and the main goal is to ask for the freedom of all detainees in Syria and with Families For Freedom, I guess, I became maybe ... I don't know, maybe more ... not more active. I’ve always, I would say I've always been active, but maybe I found more effective channels. You know what I mean? And then this year, I was following the trial, even before it started. I have some connections with the ECCHR. I knew people there. And I knew about this complaint even before it was decided to go to the court and everything. And when the hearings started actually in Koblenz, I wasn't thinking of going there or anything. I just I knew about it and I was closely following what was going on. I know some of the witnesses and we've been talking about it, and I've been hearing from people about ... those witnesses about what's going on, and you know, it wasn't on the media yet, but among us, those who knew about it, it was a huge thing. But I didn't have any expectations. I didn't even like ... I couldn't even imagine what will the trial look like and what will Syrians think about it?

(00:21:22) And then the minute it started, and I was, I saw the media attention and everything, I just had the feeling that we should be there. It's very important on many different levels. Obviously, this is a huge step, as I've repeated this, for many times, this is a huge step. But I was, I was I guess, concerned that it will be presented for Syrians as the justice for Syria. And I was sure that this is not it. Obviously this is one step, and this is a huge step, but this is not justice. This is not what Syria and Syrians have been demanding for years. This is one step towards it, definitely. But this is not it. And this is, this should not stop us from continuing what we are doing, because most importantly, we are now prosecuting Anwar Raslan and another person, and this is important, but we are prosecuting them for crimes they've committed in the past.

(00:22:44) But these crimes are still happening. It's not only about my dad. Obviously, this is in the first place about my dad, but this is still happening. People are still actually getting detained now in Syria. So, we should, we should, I guess, I thought my main idea of going there was that we should use this platform and this historical moment to get even more attention and to get, I guess, to gather efforts and to say that we started altogether, and this is important, and this is great. But we should keep going all together, to save who we can save, because there are still people who we can save. If we will just say that "Yeah, we did all we can. That's it. We are prosecuting criminals."

(00:23:40) It's very important because this is also not only happening in Germany. This is, trials are also ... I mean, or at least complaints are being filed in other countries, which is great. And this is the main idea I have about justice: justice for Syria is Syrians and victims centered. So, we should have a role in this. I'm not going to just sit home and watch the news about Syrians being prosecuted in Germany, by German authorities, which is great. But this is great because this is what we have now, but this is not the ideal idea we have about justice. Obviously, I want justice to be achieved in Syria, by Syrians. I want those criminals to be prosecuted by us in Syria, but until then, what's going on now is good, but we all need to do more. All of us who actually feel that they can do more or they can still do something.

(00:24:50) I think that that was very important because getting to address the entity that we've been trying to address for years is crucial. It means that our efforts meant something and that there is a result. But to be honest, the main thing is that we have no other option. Even in the moments that I knew that nothing will change, that this council will do nothing. I had no other option. This is not... I mean, just at least this applies only to me. I cannot force anyone else to do so, but at least for me just being silent is not an option. Not only because of my dad, obviously, and this is definitely the main reason. It goes without saying obviously, but even before my dad got arrested, I was active. I was doing stuff. I was trying my best. I was trying all possible ways for this revolution to achieve its goals.

(00:26:16) Maybe I will not get to see a free democratic Syria, but at least I want to do my best to make sure that someone will in the future. Maybe not me, maybe not the next generation, but this is what my dad did. And this is what I want to do. I was just telling someone yesterday that I recently realized that for years, I've been like going on events and stuff and talking about detention and detainees in Syria, but I didn't even mention my dad's name, you know? I was just like, "Yeah, my name is Wafa Mustafa, and my dad is arrested." And I realized that after an interview with Al Jazeera when they asked me about... they just asked me, "Can you tell us a memory of you and your dad?" And I just started crying because I couldn't. It was the first time I felt that it's true. I actually do not talk about my dad as a human, as my dad. I talk about him as someone who's detained and there are many reasons for that.

(00:27:40) But then I realized at some point that I even... That this is not fair for my dad, and it's not, its definitely not fair for myself. And yeah, recently I just started like... I decided that, okay, every time I talk about this, I want to mention my dad's name. This is the least I can do. And to be honest, it's not only that I do not talk about my dad in events and stuff. It's probably maybe a defense mechanism or so, because it's more than anyone can take. I mean, I'm 30 and my dad has been now disappeared for seven years. But this is not something you get used to. This is not something you accept. And... actually I'm not sure how healthy that sounds, but everything I do in my life is centered around my dad and the fact of his... disappearance... I mean for seven years now, we've been trying just to know whether he's alive or not. We've tried everything, we've assigned many lawyers. We've paid money for people from the regime, people who have connections, just like all other Syrians.

(00:29:26) And at some point, I guess I just said that I think people who deserve most to witness this moment are the detainees, are my dad and all other detainees and those who are disappeared. And this one sentence actually led us to the idea of me going to Koblenz, definitely with the support of Families for Freedom and the Syria campaign. I didn't go there. I mean I was there, I stood there by myself, but I didn't do that by myself, definitely. And so, first time I went there with 61 photos, and with the help of friends and great people from the Syria campaign, we did that. Whatever, I sat there with the photos and we stayed there, I guess, for two or three days in a row. And then I was shocked by the... I just stood there. I did nothing. I was sitting there among these photos. We were just talking to people who were passing by. They were asking because the scene is very catchy. And people were just... People just didn't pass by. They stopped and asked, "Who are these people? Why there are kids? Why there are women?" So we got to talk to people. We got to explain what's going on, but we also got to deliver this message to Anwar Raslan himself.

(00:31:04) And what happened actually is that next day I took a piece of paper, I wrote the information all Syrians write when someone asks you ... when you ask someone for help to get information about someone who's detained. You do the same thing, you write information about their names, their father's names, their mom's names, birth place, blah, blah, blah, detention date, and stuff. So I did, I wrote something in Arabic and English. And I went to the lawyer and I told him that, "I just want you to give this to Anwar Raslan. And I want you to tell him that this ... What families of detainees do sometimes three, four, or five times a day. And I don't want information about my dad, I know that he knows nothing, but I want him to look at that and think of the families of detainees who he knows about."

(00:32:05) Many people in Syria were arrested for no reason. And they all deserve justice, they all deserve to be free. But I'm not going to deprive my dad the right to say the reasons he was arrested and disappeared for. My dad was political, my dad was active. And many people were actually ... went into the streets, demanded freedom, justice, and democracy in a state of law And this is why they were arrested. The reasons are important. You cannot just talk about detainees, as they are detained — It doesn't matter why. It does matter why.

(00:32:45) The other day, I was talking to this mother who told me that, "Oh, I don't want you to share this video I translated because it says ..." because it has her son's name, who's detained for an hour, also eight years. And I asked her why. And then she said, "Because I don't want to look selfish. It's not like my son is the only one who's detained in Syria." And that was very sad. And this is, I guess, most of the families of detainees ... this is how we think, and this is how we act. But I'm trying now to change that because this is even unfair for us. The distancing ourselves from our loved ones is unjust. And this actually, it doesn't serve anyone. It doesn't help anyone.

العربية

Patrick Kroker (00:00:00):

My name is Patrick Kroker. I'm a German qualified lawyer and I am representing eight victims in this case together with a partner lawyer of mine, six of whom will be civil parties in the case as of yet so their applications have been accepted, while the other two still have pending applications for the trial that will start tomorrow.

Balkees Jarrah:

So can you tell us a little bit about the case that's coming up? What is this trial about?

Patrick Kroker (00:00:35):

Sure. The trial is about two accused that have very, I would say, different accusations that they are facing. It is mainly about Anwar R, who allegedly headed a torture prison of the Syrian General Intelligence in Damascus in the years of 2011 and 2012. And he has been arrested in Germany where he has been residing for some years. There were prior investigations also for some years before his arrest, and he is currently facing an indictment of 4,000 cases of torture, 58 murders and two cases of sexual violence as a crime against humanity in the trial that will start tomorrow. The second accused, Eyad A., has been charged with complicity in 30 cases of torture as a crime against humanity.

Balkees Jarrah:

Are you able to talk to us a little bit about who you're representing?

Patrick Kroker (00:01:40):

Yeah, sure. Of course, to quite a limited degree. And of course, it's always very difficult to generalize because I have eight clients and they are eight individuals with very individual motivations, backgrounds and histories, but there are, nevertheless, some general aspects also which I can share. It's a quite diverse group, I would say, when it comes to age and backgrounds, so to say. These are people that are from their late 20s to their mid-60s, two women, six men, and what unites them is that they have been active in some way back in 2011 and 2012 in the peaceful uprising that was happening in Syria back then, and have, for that reason, been labeled as opposition to the Syrian regime, as a threat obviously, and for that reason, have been detained in the branch that Anwar R. is alleged to have led. Some of them for a longer time and all of them have been tortured during that time and some of them or most of them actually have been quite severely physically mistreated by, for example, way of hanging from their wrists, a torture method known as shabeh, by beatings with objects, electrocutions, et cetera, and they all have suffered from these very, yeah, horrible detention conditions where, first of all, many times you don't really know where you are, what's happening to you. Everything is surrounded by secrecy and darkness. The conditions, you have very filthy cells, completely overcrowded many times, very insufficient food and water supplies, hardly any healthcare at all. You hear constant screams of torture by other people.

(00:03:45) And I think what for many of them, for most of them is extremely important, first of all is to find out the truth -- to know more about the system of torture, to know what has happened exactly, who the orders came from, et cetera. And also when I say system of torture, this is something that we really have to keep in mind that this is only one part and one part of many parts of a system that exists in Syria and that has long existed before 2011 already, that is kind of, one can say the DNA of governance, in Syria by the current government and that has been used to crush the civilian uprising in the very beginning. And this is really what all our clients are aware of that it is a larger system, and they want also to know everybody and want to speak about and want the truth revealed about the system as such. And to understand that of course, this is a criminal trial and they will participate in the trial against Anwar R. and give their testimony, et cetera, but they are speaking also for all the others that are still, until this very day, in detention in these horrible conditions, or that have maybe passed away in detention, or have to fear reprisals if they would participate, et cetera. So, it's fair to say that really for all my clients, it is, at least, also about the wider cause, so to say, and it goes way beyond their own case. It goes to really show how the system works, a system that, again, has many more powerful people also that are committing these crimes to this very day.

Balkees Jarrah:

I wanted to ask you, we've known each other for a while, but what was the moment that you knew you wanted to do this kind of work? So not this specifically, but just international criminal law generally. Do you remember what first sparked your interest?

Patrick Kroker (00:06:05):

For me, what is really fascinating about this field of law is that it is really about, yeah, something so basic and so vital of everything that, you know, yeah, humanity is about even, if I should use these big words. I mean, if you want to have the debate about the universality of values, et cetera, I guess you know thou shall not commit genocide, that’s really something that all beings would agree to. And this kind of law is applicable in these extreme situations. How can something that is made by humans, which is the law, work in situations where such mass atrocities have taken place? How do societies deal with that? And as a lawyer, how does the law deal with that? And is that even possible? And what do we do to come to terms with that?
 

(00:07:02) And these kinds of questions have, from the very beginning of my law studies, or even before, really caught my attention. Even before law school, I remember, I think it was my 18th birthday or so, that my godmother, who's also a lawyer and she's a judge actually, and she gave me the judgment of Nuremberg for my birthday, and I read the whole thing and I found it really interesting. And I guess that's also very much related to my own country's past, to Germany, and this horrible violence that has been committed here during the Second World War, the Holocaust, and the war crimes and the aggression, et cetera. And growing up in that atmosphere, what do we do with that? How do we come to terms with that? How can we, in my generation, speak and behave to victims' groups? What is our responsibility? What was the responsibility of our parents or our grandparent's generation? What has happened, and more what has not happened? Et cetera. These were all, I would say, in my upbringing, very important questions, at least for myself, and that's when there was the first contact where these questions were discussed and dealt with in the framework of the law. I found that very fascinating and then just followed it evermore until I was, yeah, completely in it, so to say.

العربية

Samaa Mahmoud (00:00:00):

My name is Samaa Mahmoud, I am from Syria, from the city of Salamiye I am 21 years old. I am a university student.

I cannot imagine, even imagine what would have happened had we stayed in Syria until now, or if we were in Syria. My mind does not accept to imagine, I really cannot imagine it. I am very happy here. I always say that Germany is my second home. It is not a paradise but my second home.

My feeling on Syria today is pity, sadness and brokenness. Pity for the people who are there, who live everywhere. Brokenness that our dream that we wanted to happen, is broken. And disappointment honestly, disappointment.

(00:02:41) When the Koblenz trials started I was following them on the media. Then I heard from my dad what was happening in Koblenz because the person being detained there, the former captain Anwar Ruslan he is the one who arrested my uncle on July 07, 2012 from al Mushtahed airport in Al Sham. My uncle Hyan(check) Mahmoud has been forcibly disappeared since then. My dad was asked to be a witness at first in Koblenz then he was a witness and a claimant. So my connection is almost direct with the court, with the entire procedure. But I was never there. I did not attend the testimonies because I can’t, mentally that is. But I followed the reports that were being written, I read all of them. But I was never there personally.

(00:04:29) The court and trying Syrians accused of war crimes is something very important, and is an important step in achieving justice whether for former detainees who have been released or to the families of the detainees who have been forcibly disappeared. It’s a very important thing. This is justice, this is what we want, this is what we strive for honestly and I truly strive for it. I see it as a very big step that I was not dreaming I would see because such things take a long time to try these sort of people and to do such a thing on the international level. This is truly something worth being optimistic about to say that I was able to see this and my father was able to see it and the rest of the families who have someone who has been forcibly disappeared and the former detainees have had the chance to stand in front of their tormentors and tell them you are now the accused and we are holding you to account. It’s a very important and necessary thing.

(00:06:22) The story of the toy from Syria, I didn’t bring it with me. It was a pink panther but a big one. It is the first toy I got when I first came to this world. And it was from my uncle Hyan. And it accompanied me in all the stages of my life, as a baby until I was 15 years old and we left Syria. I loved that toy. When I was little I used to hug it when I was afraid because it was very big and the pink panther is long. I used to hug it and go to sleep when I was afraid and I used to slow dance with him. I used to love it but like I told you the conditions in which we left, I could not bring something like that. My mom left her cup on the table, as if we weren’t leaving the house at all. I definitely couldn’t bring a toy that size. A long time passed and I felt that I couldn’t get that toy back. But this toy means a lot to me. About a month ago we were in touch with our relatives in Salamiye and there was a moving company that was moving things from Syria to Germany or to Europe. We made a small box and in it was the pink panther, he came to Germany (laughs). I received the pink panther in Germany after… I saw him in 2014, he arrived in 2021 to Germany to my house. I opened the box and I was shocked because the material was worn out, his eyebrows were gone, his nose a bit beaten up. He needs stitching, fixing and restoration. I started to smell him, even though he smells like laundry detergent, he has been washed, there is no smell that reminds me of anything in specific but I started to smell him and slow dance with him at 21 years old like I used to do when I was 10. I put him down to sleep on the sofa and I covered him up. I felt like I wanted to remember those moments. I looked at him and for a moment I felt the years that have gone by, how it used to be and how time affected him and his skin and I felt that he is like us. This wearing out and tiredness in his material is like our insides. But we are alive and we are being restored like I want to restore him, once I buy the necessary supplies.

(00:09:44) I had these feelings when I received it, when I first saw it. I was very happy. For a while I felt that when my uncle Hyan comes out in good health, if he is there, I will tell him, look what I brought from Syria. I brought this specifically from Syria because it came from you and because it means a lot to me. God willing.

العربية

Balkees Jarrah (00:00:00):

Could you introduce yourself and tell us what you do now?

Diana Semaan (00:00:05):

I'm Diana Semaan and I'm the Syria researcher at Amnesty International based in Beirut. I am currently also covering Yemen, but for the past 10 years, I've mainly focused on Syria.

Balkees Jarrah:

And you said that you started working supporting the Syria researcher at human rights watch. Was there a dedicated team working on Syria? What did that look like? And, and, and what was your role exactly?

Diana Semaan (00:00:45):

So when — I remember, again, because I joined like a few days before the protest erupted, so I was there from the very beginning. And it was a time when there were, you know, the Arab world was witnessing like protest movement in Egypt, in Tunis, and elsewhere. And it wasn't expected that the same would happen in Syria because of the government and because of how repressive the government was for decades. So when it happened, all of the resources—most of the resources – with Human Rights Watch, were diverted to Syria, for us to be able to work and document everything that was happening in the country. And again, I, to emphasize, because we didn't have any access, it meant that we needed even more resources to be able to do the, all of the work remotely.

And a memory that stuck with me until today was actually — and that's how, you know, I started working on Syria to be honest — that memory was basically answering a phone call to HRW office in Beirut on March 17th or 18th, I can't remember the exact date. And it was the wife of a prominent human rights defender and she was calling us to say that her husband was detained during a sit-in, in front of one of the ministries, in Damascus city. And I recall very well, you know, the fear in her voice, the confusion and, and the bit of helplessness. And at first, I just didn't understand that fear, but a few weeks later with increase and frequency and scale of protests, in Daraa and Damascus and, you know, the ensuing ruthless crackdown on protestors, it was clear that the Syrian government had, you know, officially launched or started this organized campaign of arbitrary detention, torture, and disappearance against the Syrian population, which continues until today.

(00:02:47) And that woman, her husband spent three years in detention. And during that period, she had no idea where he was, or if he was alive or dead. She would only receive news from released detainees, who would, you know, who told her that he was subjected or was being subjected to torture and ill treatment. So technically her husband was cut off from the external world, not allowed to speak to his family, lawyer, or anyone. And actually her, his lawyer was detained couple of months later, and his fate and whereabouts are unknown until today. Anyway, his story represents, you know, tens of thousands of other cases of men and women detained—and predominantly men—detained and disappeared in Syria in the past decade. And, you know, following this phone call, I was, I provided, or I, I offered my support because again, all of the resources were needed for us to be able to respond to all of these violations happening. And that's how I started working on Syria. It's documenting mainly detention of protestors, but also, you know, the shooting of protestors or denial of medical care and so forth.

Balkees Jarrah (00:04:15):

And how did that impact you? I mean, it must be very hard hearing all of these stories, doing the work that you, that you do now for so many years

Diana Semaan (00:04:36):

Yeah, hearing these stories is extremely painful, but at some point, you know, during the 10 years, you just learn how to, you know, to try to process all of, all of that, all of what you're hearing and try to look at the bigger picture, which is, you know, these individuals or these survivors, victims, are speaking to us despite everything they've been through, because they are also looking at the bigger picture, which is, you know, preservation of evidence, accountability, even if it takes another decade. So, this is the main thing that drives me to continue, and I hope I would continue working on Syria until the end, but I think this is the main thing that makes it a bit easier to continue.

Balkees Jarrah (00:05:35):

I was just about to ask you, is that what keeps you motivated to keep doing this work?

Diana Semaan (00:05:40):

Yes, it does. And the Koblenz trial, definitely re-affirmed it for me and for the Syrians even more than, than us, as the researchers, but we did, I mean, as Syrians because, you know, we interact with, with Syrians all the time, not just to, you know, hear what they've been through, but also to understand more why they do what they're doing, which is speaking out consistently for the past 10 years. I'm not exaggerating when I say, not one person, not one Syrian, I've reached out to refused to speak to me, not one. And that gives me also the motivation to continue the fact that we're doing that for the bigger game, because we all knew, I mean, my expectations were managed from the beginning. I'm from Lebanon, I'm from the region. I know how structured the oppression is in Syria. I knew, and Syrians knew that it wasn't going to be an easy battle. It was going to be prolonged. Of course, no one expected that it would be that hard, but we knew that it was a long journey. So that you know, having our expectations managed also gives you that extra push that you need.

Balkees Jarrah (00:07:05):

You've been working on Syria for 10 years. Did you think that a trial, like the one taking place in Koblenz would ever come to be?

Diana Semaan (00:07:18):

No. I never thought that. I thought that, trials would happen, but I didn't think that sentencing or, you know, I didn't think that I would see through it in the end, which is, you know, having a verdict. But I recall, you know, Syrian organizations were like ahead, they were before us in thinking about universal jurisdiction. Because I remember once there was a flow of refugees into European countries, I remember, two or three organizations telling me that this is a positive step because of, you know, universal jurisdiction, and the possibility of having trials in Germany and elsewhere in European countries that have universal jurisdiction. And once the trial started, I recalled that moment, and it felt like it's possible. And I hope that it continues, and it grows in other countries, not just Germany.  I didn't think it would happen, but now that it happened, I can see it happening a bit — much more — in  other countries. And I, and I see, could see organizations, Syrian organizations motivated and driven to continue, because it definitely gave hope to them: to Syrians in general, but to us also as human rights researchers.

Balkees Jarrah (00:08:55):

And do you feel like the trial in Koblenz, or other cases like it are having any impact inside Syria?

Diana Semaan (00:09:13):

It’s having an impact. But when we speak about people inside Syria, if we speak about, you know, people in government-controlled areas, they're definitely watching what's happening. And we know that, you know, I know that, for people who go in and out and, you know, I meet them here, for instance, in Lebanon, for people who are living in, in Northwest Syria and in areas under the control of the armed opposition, it definitely gave them hope. It reinforced, you know, their thinking of this hasn't ended, it’s…they haven't lost. You know, I mean, it did give them hope, but of course they are living in an area where they're enduring so much suffering because of military offensives, attacks, humanitarian situation, but it did resonate, and it did give them hope to continue the work that they're doing and to survive basically. So, so, yeah of course did give a bit more hope to Syrian organizations working on this issue. It gave them this extra push to continue to continue their work and to focus even more on accountability.

Balkees Jarrah (00:10:40):

What are your hopes for the end of the trial?

Diana Semaan (00:10:45):

For me, it's just, it's not only about that trial. My hopes are that other countries replicate what has happened in Germany you know, to follow suit and you know, provide resources to their wars crime units to investigate these crimes that are happening or happened in Syria. That's the main takeaway for me is hoping that this would be definitely replicated as for European countries to have the will to help Syrians achieve justice, because other avenues are blocked, such as the ICC, the international criminal court and, and other, other options are completely blocked for now.

Balkees Jarrah (00:11:34):

What do you think these types of cases represent beyond, beyond, obviously speaking to the guilt of the specific individuals implicated in the trials, what do you think they represent and signify?

Diana Semaan (00:11:50):

I think that, you know, all of the violations or the crimes against humanity is committed by the Syrian government, again, it sent like a very clear message to the world that they are a force to reckon with. But today that court is sending back a message to the Syrian government, you know, saying that they will be held accountable. Sooner or later, you know, accountability, will happen, is an option, it is already happening. And one could only hope that it would, deter the government from continuing these violations. But it definitely sends a very clear message to the Syrian government that there's no way that they could run away from justice.

Balkees Jarrah (00:12:50):

So where do you see things going from here in Syria? What are your greatest fears and maybe what's your hope for Syria from a human rights perspective.

Diana Semaan (00:13:06):

Now, the most immediate fear is, you know, part of Syria losing access to humanitarian aid. And this is the biggest thing that is on everyone's mind at the moment. There's a huge risk that you know, millions of civilians will be deprived of essential humanitarian aid, if in July, the security council doesn't renew a key resolution.

Beyond that, I think the only thing that—the biggest, you know, if you want to say, I don't know, heartbreak for me personally, but for so many other human rights researchers working on Syria— is the issue of detention, and the zero prospects of that issue being addressed anytime soon. The fact that it's extremely political, it has been politicized by all parties to the conflict. Even when we meet with experts, they tell us that the detention file—it’s called now, like detention file—no one will touch it or address it before an end to the conflict, you know, before all parties sit, and I don’t know, agree on some kind of an end to the situation in Syria and to the conflict. And by that time, it would be too late for all of these tens of thousands of people disappeared in Syria. But that said, I think as long as accountability is on track in European countries, such as in Germany and other places, then this gives a bit of, you know, more positive prospects for the future.

العربية

Khaled Rawwas (00:00:00):

My name is Khaled Rawwas, I’m a mechanical engineer. I currently live in Germany as of five years ago and I work in the shipbuilding industry. I left in 2013 and went to Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey until I settled in Germany.

Sara Kayyali (00:00:24):

Why did you leave Syria?

Khaled Rawwas (00:00:28):

I left because I was detained twice. It was a very difficult experience for me and my parents, so it was better to leave after my second imprisonment. I survived, or was one of the few survivors, two times and I did not know if I would survive another or if I would  stay in prison for longer like many others have. The first arrest was during a protest in Damascus and the second time was also during  another protest. Unfortunately, there were ‘security reports’ produced by the shabiha  (somewhat an equivalent to mercenary in English) or informers for the Syrian regime.  These reports were used to put pressure on other detainees to find out who they were  working with, so my name was mentioned in several interrogations. For this reason, I was imprisoned.

Khaled Rawwas (00:01:36):

Honestly like so many Arab youth, I saw what happened in Egypt, Tunis, and Libya, I had hope for change. From my birth until the moment I departed Syria, I never lived through a period of democracy or elections ... I only lived under one regime and that was Assad’s  regime. Unfortunately, we expected that things would be easier or that it would at least be similar to the scenarios of other countries. I still remember the first protest I attended; I was there to be present, I just wanted to see what was happening, far from the media and far from [inaudible]. I witnessed at that time the terrifying attack by the regime security officers on protestors who were not doing much, they were  simply voicing their  demands for freedom. It was at a time where there was no “Ash-shab yurid isqat an- nizam” (“the people want to bring down the regime”) - it was simply demands for justice,  dignity, and freedom; and seeing that colossal attack on them engendered a kind of a … resolution that this has to change. Of course, there is not a single family in Damascus,  and Syria in general, who do not know what happened in the 1980’s or is not affected by [inaudible].

(00:03:13) Getting detained is an experience that is truly not only harsh, but it makes you bear a cause. The cause of all detainees is a great one; the things I saw inside, I mean, it impacted me in a way that the people who are still inside should not be forgotten about. Truly this thing, regardless of who, not just friends and family and people whom I really love and lived with for a period of time. I knew that they may not get out - until now they’re not out anyway - and this always made me think of what we could do when we leave Syria.

I had great hope that we would be able to apply international pressure through humanitarian and human rights organizations. I also helped a lot in writing reports for some organizations to try and mediate what was happening. I was hoping that things would change if there was international pressure, or if the voices of detainees were heard, or if people knew what was happening in Syrian prisons. Unfortunately, I did not feel that it was being taken seriously at the time. I mean, if you do a simple Google search today about what is happening in Syria, you’d find millions - sorry, thousands - of articles and reports about it, even specifically about the conditions of prisoners in Syria. But has this contributed to a single detainee’s release? Unfortunately, it did not.  

Khaled Rawwas (00:04:58):

Because in principle we are dealing with a dictatorship, a regime that had no problem in using all kinds of force against protestors or people who wanted to change the system. At the same time, it did not hide, or it was trying to show a face to the world that is not happening. But despite all the reports, it was continuing to do this. Nothing changed regarding the conditions of detainees or their release, even just political prisoners who did not have any affiliation to any party or nation, etc. Unfortunately, the international system that we’re dealing with is a failed system. It is a dictatorial system in principal. Until today I am yet to be convinced that there is democracy in this world while there are tools such as the veto, for example, which is the most suppressive of tools only because one nation can decide not to agree with something because of its own interests; so, it is able to control the fate of an entire population. Therefore, we are dealing with a system that is inherently corrupt, a rotten system.

(00:06:19) We needed real action directed towards this regime and towards the violations that they were committing. The pathway for the courts in Germany is a legal one, it depends on German jurisdiction - I mean its code of universal jurisdiction, my apologies. When I found out about this, I felt that this was a really important action that should have been taken from the beginning. If it had started earlier, some things could have been changed. Regardless of the timing, being a refugee in Germany, as a non-German, it was really important for me that I am able to take to court an entity outside of Germany for war crime violations.

There was a period of time - the period that came after, sorry, was a very sweet step, or a very powerful one, according to me as Khaled. It was when the arrest warrants were put out for war criminals such as Jamil Hassan, and of course other criminals whose names were not made public. These warrants, despite what they represent, unfortunately did not mean that we can immediately apprehend Jamil Hassan. But we were sending a message that these war criminals, after everything they did, were not able to simply get out of Syria, or able to live normal lives, or spend their money normally, despite all the crimes they committed.

(00:08:01) The following step was the arrest of Anwar Raslan and Eyad Al-Gharib, or the warrants put out for them by the German general prosecutor. It was also a very powerful step in the sense that this person carried out torture.

I mean, we’re talking about a person who was the senior officer in the intelligence security branch, so this man was an integral part of the regime's security system that we’re talking about. This was also a big step.

I also want to say here that this is a big step for me personally but at the same time it is a small step in the journey of achieving justice to Syria. But at least it did start something. That is what’s important, the fact there was a first step take, and there is something tangible today. I was in the courtroom 11 times, so I attended 11 sessions, and I completely knew what was happening was real.

For me, the presence of someone from this system, in the ranks of someone like Anwar Raslan in a courtroom being tried …  This point alone, the moment he entered the courtroom, was a very strong one because once upon a time I was being held and I was being interrogated in a way that does not resemble the way Anwar Raslan was being interrogated. Feelings were mixed during this realization; to be honest I had a kind of envy in the way he was being treated very well and was given his rights, while I was completely deprived of mine when I was being investigated. [The former] should of course always be the case, but at the same time one feels this difference in treatment, in the difference between everything that this person committed in Syria as the intelligence senior officer and the treatment he is receiving here in Germany.

Sara Kayyali (00:10:18):

In this difference of treatment and having the possibility for a kind of justice or a kind of accountability in Germany, it makes one feel the gap between Syria and Germany widen further and makes it all the more harrowing. In the several court sessions you attended, did you wish that these trials were happening in Syria instead? Did you feel that the trials gained or lost something by having them take place in Germany?

Khaled Rawwas (00:11:04):

Of course the initial feeling or the first thing that I had when the first case took place here in Germany, there was honestly a sort of heartbreak, like, “why are we doing this in Germany?” I had a lot of hope that justice would be served in Syria, that these trials would take place in Syria, and for it to truly be part of the prosecution of many criminals who committed crimes against the Syrian people, not just since 2011, but also in the 40 years before that. At the same time, we had to be realistic that unfortunately it was not possible, if not next to impossible, for this to take place in Syria as long as this regime is ruling. So, there weren't any other options. It was the right step to take for the trials to happen in Germany. And I do hope that Anwar Raslan and others like him will be tried again in Syria, on Syrian land. Currently the number of witnesses and claimants in Germany might be very small compared to the victims that are still in Syria, or still in the detention centers, or even those who unfortunately died because of torture.

Sara Kayyali (00:12:22):

You attended 11 court sessions. What surprised you the most and what were you happiest about?

Khaled Rawwas (00:12:39):

The most thing, honestly -- I’ll start with the happiest. It was the opening statement of the German persecutor in the first session who vividly described and explained the background of the Syrian revolution. Honestly one thing that really made me happy was describing what’s happening in Syria as a revolution. For me this is something very huge, while for other people it could be insignificant. But unfortunately since 2011, what has been happening in Syria has been continuously described as a ‘civil war’ and for me this was always frustrating. What happened in Syria was not a civil war. What happened was a revolution against a corrupt system. So the German prosecutor describing what took place in 2011 in Syria as a revolution was a victory for me.

The thing that surprised me the most honestly, and of course this is my personal opinion, but what surprised me the most was the indifference of Anwar Raslan. I mean, the general prosecutor was reading out the list of charges against him for more than 2 hours approximately. I mean someone in his position - being accused of 4000 torture charges and 58 murder charges, or murder by torture - should, if we’re dealing with a normal

human being, feel some sort of remorse or some sort of responsibility because he wasn’t just a mere employee in the detention center, we are talking about its senior officer. What really surprised me, or let me say what really disturbed me, was his indifference and his denial of all accusations that he was arraigned on by the German general prosecutor. And this was ... I honestly did not expect that anyone is able to deny this amount of accusations, that are proven let’s just say, so that surprised me the most in this case.

Sara Kayyali (00:14:51):

And now because they are sitting in the accused’s seat, did it change anything in them? Also, for the people in Syria who are committing the same practices?

Khaled Rawwas (00:15:06):

Let me say that it sent a very strong message to those people, even the ones who are in Syria, that that road is coming. Regrettably it took too long, but that day is coming. The day when they will be tried. The day is coming when these trials will hopefully take place in Syria. They mustn’t think that after everything they’ve done, they’re going to be able to leave to another country or live normal lives if the system changes or even if it does not. As long as there are detainees, as long as there are people who are demanding their rights, who know precisely what they need in terms of justice. So, they are not safe. That message, in my opinion but I hope this is clear to them, was very strong and expressive; it wasn’t just a voice, it was a redemptive voice.

Sara Kayyali (00:16:06):

For someone to attend 11 sessions, there must be a sort of connection or commitment to these issues. What made you committed to attending all sessions? I would expect that the first session had many attendees, and the last one not as much.

Khaled Rawwas (00:16:31):

Honestly, I’m following the sessions with great passion, Sara. It’s a very strong passion; I was in course once after my first arrest in Syria, it was the only time I entered the Palace of Justice or a courthouse in Syria, and it was for only two minutes, the judge asked me one question, then I was out and that was it. There wasn’t even any [inaudible] unfortunately. Being in the courthouse in Germany today, I’m following how the case is unfolding, with the defense attorneys, claimants, prosecution attorneys, the general attorney, what the witnesses are saying, and what the claimants are saying. The process in itself is very interesting to me, we are all learning from it as Syrians on how these matters should be investigated.

I came here to Germany because of the suppression by Bashar Al-Assad and the ruling gang of the regime’s security system. And because of this precisely, it is very difficult for me as a refugee to hear that someone who was part of that criminal organization has the same right as me to seek refuge. I’m escaping the likes of him; I’m a refugee only because of the likes of him. It is honestly very hard to be placed in the same category as refugees.

(00:18:06) I wanted to also say that the presence of individuals like these, and unfortunately, we know there are many of them who are affiliated with the Syrian regime here in Germany, is a threat to us as Syrians. I, Khaled, am a refugee in Germany today but at the same time I can’t say that I feel 100% safe here. We all know that dictatorial regimes in general and in particular Assad’s regime, regardless if it’s the father’s or the son’s, have a lot of experience with refugees who left Syria in following them, threatening them, and killing them at times. And this still of course exists ever since the 1980’s, with those who left after the Hama massacre and the arrests that happened in Damascus being followed all the way to Europe and Germany. So, they were not safe. And today I can’t say that I feel 100% safe with the presence of individuals like these in the community. Even if they are exercising their right to seek refuge, they could be in intelligence missions or they could be after us. I can’t say I'm 100% safe because of those individuals.

There are cases, for example if you’ve heard of Mazen Al-Hamada in the Netherlands, in which we do not know the circumstances of the matter, nobody knows what was done to him, he went through the experience of torture with such extreme bitterness and intense pain that's impossible for him to stand on his own two feet again, or make sound decisions. I hope I do not hear of any more cases. I hope this is taken very, very seriously and is highly prioritized because I do not want to feel like I’m in danger again even residing in a foreign country, or the country of refuge asylum.

(00:20:01) It’s terrifying, terrifying. When I heard about it, I really could not imagine. I don’t know if you saw the film that Mazen made or that was made about Mazen’s life and the bitterness that was in Mazen’s voice, his gestures, his tears. It’s impossible ... It’s impossible for anyone to convince me that this man has willingly gone back to his feet, back to the murderer. It’s impossible. Unfortunately, there are circumstances we cannot know. Why did he return [to Syria]? And I also hope that we don't end up seeing him on Syrian TV, like many people that were forced to go on Syrian TV to deny and take back all what they had previously said. This is unfortunately expected of the Assad regime.

To be honest, the first demand of the Syrian revolution was for justice, freedom, and dignity, so the fruition of these demands is what I hope for most. I really hope that the entirety of the regime’s security system, not just - unfortunately, today you hear a lot of talk about Bashar Al-Assad as an individual. Personally, my problem is not just with Bashar Al-Assad, my problem is with the entirety of the regime’s security system, with the 17 security branches that are in Damascus, and each security branch has a terrifying number of prisons. I currently hope, and this is always my main desire, that the detainees, those who are missing, and those who are kidnapped, will be out to see the light of day, exercise justice in their rights.

There are youth that have been detained since 2011 that are still there today. Let’s at least rescue the ones who are still here. There are many people, unfortunately, who died under torture, or were tortured to death. I hope the remaining ones in these prisons are able to get out, see the light of day, exercise their right to seek justice, and demand the same things they also came out for in 2011.

(00:22:16) But if I could end with a few words maybe - I always say what is happening now in Syria truly does not only have to do with Syria. It is a purely human matter. When we call for the rescue of detainees, it is not only the rescue of Syrian detainees, but the rescue of humanity in all its kinds through the rescue of Syrian detainees. The tragedies happening in Syria are very horrifying, especially with the kidnapped detainees. This has to change. Unfortunately, we’re not talking about something that happened previously, we’re talking about something that is happening right now, in this minute, during this interview, and during this conversation. This has to be stopped. There has to be actual and real steps taken towards the direction of releasing the detainees.

العربية

Mokhtar (00:00:00)

I am of Syrian origin, from the occupied Golan, and I was born in Damascus. I came to Germany at the end of 2014. Today, I run a Middle Eastern restaurant with a friend of mine.

- In 2011, the revolution began in Daraa. I was like everybody else watching the news on TV, not knowing whether to believe it or not. I believed that this was really about people’s rights rights exist and that what I saw on the news was not fake. But what I couldn’t believe was that there are people who would actually do such things or act like that, people who kill children, blow things up, or even find this sort of thing to be so easy. I didn’t expect that until I saw it with my own eyes. I used to live in the Sayeda Zainab region in Damascus, which is a multi-denominational area that includes both Shia and Sunni people. It was at the funeral of a martyred officer, comprising of about 7,000 people. Nobody told me that story. I saw it with my own eyes. A plane bombed the mourners. 311 of them were martyred that day.

- That was in 2012. Later, I tried to find a solution, so I tried to leave the country. I wanted to do something that would benefit and support the revolution, but also to provide for myself in order to survive and have energy. Then, I got a phone call from a friend of mine telling me to leave the country, because my name was leaked, and I had gotten on the wanted list. He told me that if I stayed, I would disappear just like my cousin. And I trust this person. So, I immediately left for Lebanon, then moved from Lebanon to Turkey, where my journey, my journey as a refugee, began.

(00:02:27)

I was far away from my cousin when I heard that he had disappeared. But when I inquired about the details of the matter, since he is considered a prisoner, I found out that it happened because of a personal conflict between him and someone else. This person wrote a report and my cousin disappeared. I am now certain that my cousin died in prison. But like his father, we were hoping that he was still alive, and that we might hear from him or anything about him. Then, I was threatened with the same fate as that of my cousin. Now, there are common and well-known methods for killing, such as shooting, hanging, and so on. But there are other methods of slow killing that are widely available in Syria. Society is hypocritical, the government is hypocritycal. The government only understands favoritism. So, I might disappear or go missing at any moment, and there is always a rationale behind it. For example, if I know that you are there, I can report that you are importing weapons, medicine, or anything. Until it becomes clear that you have nothing to do with the matter, or your turn to be investigated comes up, you would have died psychologically or physically, or contracted many diseases.

- The asylum process in Germany took two and a half years until I became recognized as a refugee. Of course, I was psychologically ruined. I felt powerless, like there was nothing I could do. I couldn’t take language classes or work knowing that I might be deported at any moment.

(00:04:15)

- I started to learn the language and do a little work. I worked in malls arranging the carts and sweeping the floor, stuff like that. I wanted to help my family and provide for myself. It is true that we receive a certain amount of support from the government, but it’s hardly enough. I stayed like this for a long time until I got my papers and the residency permit. Only then did I feel relieved.

- I created a page on the Internet for learning German and it has 50,000 followers, 50,000 followers on Facebook. We also set up a translation team of about 40 people to assist any newcomers to Germany. For example, if there is a woman who needs to see a doctor, one of the girls from the team goes with her, as she cannot be accompanied by a young man according to our customs and traditions. That was the beginning. Each of us was learning and then going to practice. I was even thanked by the mayor and associations here. The latter would always ask for my assistance whenever they need something in connection with the Syrian community. They would send it to me and I would share it on the page, because that page is very reputable here.

- Three years ago. We opened the restaurant three years ago.

What caught my attention was the media momentum and number of people interested in the matter who have nothing to do with this issue nor with Syrians. I bet that there are very few Syrians who are watching the court hearings; the rest are all German and various journalists. The Syrians who have become integrated in this community no longer care about what happens. However, I think that this is very significant for public opinion. The people who are part of Bashar al-Assad’s regime will have nowhere to go when the regime falls and they try to emigrate. They will not be able to escape, even to the ends of the world, because someone will find them. And I am extremely pleased with that notion.

(00:06:43)

There is no justice in the entire universe. Believe me, if these trials affected political opinion, they would have shut them down. This is my personal opinion. Still, it remains an important step that represents the triumph of people who seek freedom for other people. It’s a big step forward, especially that a trial concerning one country is conducted in another, without being an international court. I liked this very much. We have been following the trial from the beginning and are sharing the updates on the groups. I’m following everything that is going on.

العربية

Français

Garance Le Caisne (00:00:00):

My name is Garance Le Caisne. I’ve been an independent journalist for almost 30 years. And for the past 10 years, I’ve dedicated myself almost exclusively to Syria since the start of the Syrian revolution.

(00:00:18) So Caesar was part of a team of photographers of the military police in Damascus who worked for the Syrian regime. And before the revolution, they were tasked with photographing soldiers who had died in accidents, in a suicide, in a fire, to supply the military justice system, to be able to archive these deaths, as I imagine happens in many armies around the world. But at the start of the revolution, in March 2011, some time later, they were asked to go and photograph dead bodies of people, demonstrators including from Daraa, who had protested and been shot dead during the government repression. And then some time later, they were asked to photograph dead bodies that were apparently detainees, civilians who had died in government detention centers, and who clearly hadn’t died of natural causes. They quickly realized that these detainees had died from torture or died of hunger or untreated illnesses.

And when... after a while, when he realized they were being asked to do this, Caesar felt very unsettled by this sort of... this archive of death, macabre, and he talks about it to his closest friend, Sami, who is an activist in the revolution, and Caesar wants to desert, to leave this regime that he obviously views as criminal. But with Sami, they talk about it and they decide not to desert, that Caesar shouldn’t desert, but that he should stay in his job and try to copy these photos and hand them over to Sami.

(00:02:07) Because you have to realize that the Syrian prison system is the very essence of the regime. Torture, the practice of enforced disappearances, it’s a bit like its DNA, its constitution. That’s also how the regime holds on. The regime holds on through the mukhabarat, through the intelligence services, through the detention centers, through the terror that it spreads through these arrests and enforced disappearances. And finding Caesar was really about trying to make him talk about that, and I think Caesar and Sami are in the image of Syrians. They’re heroes and at the same time they are no more heroes than the millions of other Syrians. They’re really in the image of Syrians. It’s true that the fact that there was Caesar’s name means that it was turned into something extraordinary. It is extraordinary, what they did. It’s obvious, what Caesar did, copying all those photos, day by day, it shows great courage. That Sami also kept them at home all that time, during the two years when Caesar copied the photos and Sami kept them at home on a hard disk. It’s also... It shows great strength.

(00:03:25) But like everything, many, many Syrians, like many, many, civilians, this fear that runs through Syrian society, since the father, since Hafez al-Assad, since the 1970s, this fear that means it’s extremely difficult to defect when you’re part of the regime. Also, the lack of trust in others, that’s something I addressed when talking to Sami and Caesar, but I also addressed it with many Syrians. That lack of trust which was, which is now almost part of the DNA of many Syrians, which was inoculated by Hafez al-Assad and now by Bashar al-Assad. They inoculated this loss of trust in Syrian society, and with many Syrians, you have to create a relationship based on trust.

These are things that we can, that it’s very, very difficult for us Westerners to imagine. It’s really something, this fear, we can’t, I don’t think we’ll ever be able to understand it 100 per cent. It’s impossible, when you’ve grown up in a democracy, you can... It’s sometimes very, very complicated to understand attitudes or reactions that seemed absolutely incomprehensible to us. But in fact, no, they’re not at all incomprehensible. They’re comprehensible if you’re Syrian and if you were brought up under Hafez al-Assad or just under Bashar Al-Assad. They’re completely comprehensible. But we, Westerners, it’s up to us Westerners to try to understand, and that takes time, and I don’t think we’re 100 per cent capable of it. I think we have to recognize our own flaws and our own difficulties.

(00:05:12) So, when the photos were revealed to the world in January 2014, Caesar and Sami had left Syria several months before, and they think – I want to say naively, but naively in a positive sense. I mean they think in a human way, in a simple way, that these images will stop the war. They’re convinced that once the whole world has seen these images, the world will understand what the regime is responsible for and the crimes it has committed. And they think it will stop the war, quite simply, that it will stop the massacres. These photos are unbelievable in the sense that you can’t believe them. Because they’re terrible. Not just terrible, because they’re terrible because you see dead bodies. Just because of the quantity of dead bodies, the state of the dead bodies, the numbers on the dead bodies, all that means you can’t believe them. And the photos are in color. It may seem surprising, but seeing photos like that of numbered bodies, immediately makes you think of the Shoah, of the Holocaust.

(00:06:27) Here, we had photos from today, current photos, and we knew that when these photos were shown, we knew that, at the moment, that the photos were shown, the same thing was still going on. At the very moment that we’re talking, it’s continuing. Torture is continuing. There is a moment when in your brain, you can’t make the connection. It’s a way of explaining in part the refusal of the international community and politicians to see. So what did the revelation of these files change? I want to say nothing. Or else it showed the extent to which our politicians didn’t want to address the Syrian question, didn’t want to address the crimes, were embarrassed in relation to Russia’s position, later with Iran’s support to the Syrian regime. Of course people talked about the files. Of course this case was extremely important and Caesar’s files were now at the heart of the evidence of crimes committed by the regime. Among other things, it is also at the heart of judicial trials, particularly in Germany. We’ll talk about that later. But at the diplomatic level, I don’t think it changed anything. No, I don’t think it changed anything.

How can I put it, when dictatorships torture someone, they don’t just leave marks on the skin. It goes well beyond that. They try to destroy memory, they try to destroy the transmission of that memory, they try to destroy people’s souls. And so, they try to silence people. And the idea of writing that book, the idea was in fact to write the account of Syrians. That it would be written down somewhere. And I didn’t know what was going to happen to that book. I didn’t know what I would do afterwards, I didn’t know. But that was the primary aim, to listen, to really to try to understand as much as possible, and then to write. 

(00:08:35) Dictatorships ride on the wave of fears and Bashar al-Assad rode on the wave of our Westerners’ fears. What are our Westerners’ fears? Terrorism. And who is terrorism, for us? It’s men with beards. It’s Muslims. It’s women with headscarves. It’s Islam, in fact. And we, at least in France, have a very complicated relationship with Islam. And for many years, Assad portrayed himself as the defender of secularism, of civilization. He was constantly saying, “it’s me or it’s chaos”. But he is the one who brought chaos. He is the one who created chaos. And in 2014, when I started working on this book, people were almost only talking about Daesh (Islamic State). Of course, Daesh is a terrorist organization. Of course, in 2015 there were also attacks in France, etc. But we shouldn’t forget who the main criminal is in Syria: it’s the government. So, Caesar’s files also had that strength, to be able to counter denial and disinformation and to be able to counter the regime’s propaganda.

(00:09:47) This trial is extremely important, first of all because it’s the first trial. And embarking on that judicial process is also a way of recognizing the crimes. It’s a way of recognizing who is the perpetrator and who is the victim. And that’s extremely important to help the victims rebuild. Because you have to think about the Syria of tomorrow, you have to think about the children that you’re bringing up. All these refugees in Europe. How can they transmit the memory of their country to their children? How will the children grow up? That’s important. It’s also important when you see, this is outside the subject now, but when you see how these refugees can be treated in Europe, but these refugees, they’re you and me, they’re people like us, they’re not poor people coming to claim asylum. They’re brave people, people who have a crazy story. They’re people who... because you need incredible courage to become a refuge. You need incredible courage to leave your country, even if your country has been destroyed. It’s not simple. You need incredible courage to go to a country where you don’t speak the language, where you have to start from scratch. When you’re 40 or 50 years old, how do you learn a foreign language? It’s something... And I think this trial can also help us Westerners better understand where Syrians are coming from, who they are and what’s happening in their country, to better understand how they live today and how we can welcome them today.

(00:11:24) Syria showed us the disorder in the world. Syria, the refusal to help Syrians, the refusal to recognize the real criminals, this will all come crashing down on us. We can’t ignore it. We can’t refuse to see. We can’t... It’s up to us to reflect. And it’s also up to us to... It’s not just them and us. It’s us, it’s us together. That’s also what the Koblenz trial can bring, try to... And that hasn’t quite happened yet... I think the Koblenz trial didn’t receive enough media coverage, and maybe it will with Anwar Raslan’s judgment in October or November, but... This trial tells the story of our world, not only the story of the world in Syria. That’s what’s important. And I don’t think we’ve weighed that up yet. 

(00:12:22) What was interesting for me as a journalist, for my work, was that I think I became more aware of the importance of testimony in a courtroom, the importance of this trial, even on a symbolic level, even if the sentences would be more or less heavy, they’re not big criminals. They’re not... It’s not the number 3, the number 2 or the number 1 of the regime, obviously. It’s not Bashar al-Assad who’s on trial. It’s not Jamil Hassan or Ali Mamluk, no. But there’s something extremely strong. And that was to go there and live through that experience myself, it... I find that interesting even for my work, to see the importance of justice. And also on a personal level, telling myself I didn’t do that work in vain because... because I spent years doubting, wondering what purpose it served, what purpose I served. But I think that’s the case for all of us, when we work on these kinds of subjects and we see the blindness of the international community, the paralysis of the international community, when we see crimes continuing, we wonder what purpose we serve. And I think... I think I felt I was a carrier, and at a certain moment, I also carried, I carried what I had, what I had kept and understood about the Syrian conflict, what this case enabled me to understand, what Sami and Caesar enabled me to understand, I was able to hand it over around me, in part. And it’s true that it’s interesting, it’s stimulating, it gives, it gives... It helps lessen your doubts and it helps give you a bit of strength to carry on. 

(00:14:25) The international community could... it can do everything and it can do nothing. It’s a bit complicated. It should be able to help with compensation for victims. It could help by rejecting dialogue with criminals, by rejecting dialogue with Bashar al-Assad. It could help by banging its fist on the table with Vladimir Putin who supports Bashar al-Assad. But obviously it’s extremely complicated because the international community is made up of nations. It is made up of negotiations and dialogue between these nations. That’s where the problem lies. The international community should push for international justice, push for the creation of an international criminal court, push for the International Criminal Court to take up the case, which is impossible for the moment because Syria hasn’t signed the Rome Treaty which established the International Criminal Court. So for the moment, I think the international community is still paralyzed, but I hope it... its main role for now would be to recognize these crimes, recognize the testimony of victims, recognize the victims, and then be able to provide support, once there’s political change in Syria, provide support to Syrians in establishing justice in their own country.

(00:16:02) It’s difficult to imagine what Syria could be in ten years or even to have any hope. Ten years is a long way away but ten years is also tomorrow. It’s already ten years since the revolution and no one would have imagined that Syrians would be in this situation ten years on. On the other hand, what I imagine, maybe without this ten year limit, is human reconstruction. I imagine a blossoming. I imagine endless discussions between parents and their children. I imagine a kind of effervescence to rebuild Syria. At the same time, I’m not sure even the word “reconstruction” is the appropriate term. But I imagine something extremely stimulating, on an intellectual and human level, for those who want to build a new Syria, for those who want to destroy that fear, that terror that has been inoculated in the Syrian people for years. It will take a long time, but that’s what I imagine, yes. That’s my hope. I have that hope for Syrians. I hope that one day, they will go through this very stimulating period of construction. And I also imagine, I imagine that the children of refugees who arrived in Europe, who have grown up in Europe, who have been educated in Europe, will be able to put their new skills, their qualifications, their... to put them to use in their country, Syria, to build this new Syria. That’s what I imagine from one generation to the next. That’s what I hope for Syrians. 

Français

Garance Le Caisne (00:00:00):

Je m’appelle Garance Le Caisne, je suis journaliste indépendante depuis bientôt 30 ans, et depuis 10 ans, je me consacre presque exclusivement à la Syrie, la révolution syrienne.

César faisait partie d’une équipe de photographes de la police militaire à Damas, qui travaillait pour le régime syrien, et avant la révolution, ils étaient chargés de prendre des photos de soldats décédés lors d’un accident, d’un suicide, d’un feu pour pouvoir alimenter la justice militaire, pour pouvoir archiver ces décès, comme j’imagine dans beaucoup d’armées du monde. Mais au début de la révolution, en mars 2011, quelque temps après, on leur demande d’aller photographier des cadavres de personnes, de manifestants, notamment de Dara, qui avaient manifesté et qui avaient été tués par balle lors de la répression du régime. Puis, quelque temps après, on leur a demandé de faire des photos de cadavres de, visiblement, de détenus, de civils qui étaient morts dans les centres de rétention du régime, et visiblement pas morts de mort naturelle. Très vite ils s’aperçoivent que ces détenus sont morts sous la torture, ou alors sont morts de faim ou de maladies non soignées.

Et au bout de quelque temps, quand il voit qu’ils sont chargés de faire ça, César est quand même très déstabilisé par cette sorte d’archive de la mort, en fait, macabre, et il en parle à son meilleur ami, Sami, qui lui est un activiste au sein de la révolution, et César a envie de déserter, de quitter ce régime qu’il voit, évidemment, criminel, mais avec Sami, ils discutent et prennent la décision de ne pas déserter, que César ne doit pas déserter, mais qu’il doit rester à son poste et essayer de copier ces photos et d’essayer de les transmettre à Sami.

(00:02:07) Parce qu’il faut savoir que le système carcéral syrien, c’est l’essence même du régime, la torture, la pratique des disparitions forcées, c’est un peu comme son ADN, sa constitution. C’est comme ça, aussi, que le régime tient. Le régime tient par les mukhabarat, les services de renseignement, par les centres de détention, par la terreur qu’il diffuse à travers ces arrestations et ces disparitions forcées. Et de retrouver César, c’était vraiment essayer de le faire parler de ça. Je pense que César et Sami sont à l’image des Syriens. Ils sont des héros, mais pas plus que les millions d’autres Syriens, en fait. Ils sont vraiment à l’image des Syriens. C’est vrai que le fait qu’il y ait le nom de César, on en fait quelque chose d’extraordinaire. C’est extraordinaire, ce qu’ils ont fait, c’est évident, ce que César a fait, de copier toutes ces photos, au jour le jour, ça montre un très grand courage. Que Sami aussi les ait gardées chez lui tout ce temps-là, pendant presque deux ans où César a copié les photos, Sami les a gardées chez lui, sur un disque dur, ça montre une très grande force, mais comme beaucoup, beaucoup, beaucoup de Syriens en fait, comme beaucoup de civils, cette peur qui traverse la société syrienne depuis le père, depuis Hafez al Assad, depuis les années 70, cette peur qui fait que c’est extrêmement difficile de faire défection quand on fait partie du régime, ce manque de confiance aussi, dans l’autre, ça c’est quelque chose que j’ai approché en parlant avec Sami et César, mais que j’ai approché aussi avec beaucoup de Syriens, ce manque de confiance qui fait partie maintenant de l’ADN de beaucoup de Syriens, qui a été inoculé par Hafez al Assad, et maintenant par Bachar al Assad. Ils ont inoculé au sein de la société syrienne cette perte de confiance, et avec beaucoup de Syriens, il faut créer ce lien de confiance, (4 :20) qu’on a beaucoup beaucoup de mal à imaginer, nous, Occidentaux. C’est vraiment quelque chose, cette peur. On ne peut pas, je pense qu’on ne pourra jamais la comprendre à 100 %, c’est impossible quand on a grandi dans une démocratie, c’est très très compliqué de comprendre des attitudes, des réactions qui nous semblent absolument incompréhensibles. Mais en fait, non, elles ne sont pas du tout incompréhensibles. Elles sont compréhensibles si vous êtes Syrien et que vous avez été élevé sous Hafez al Assad ou juste sous Bachar al Assad. Elles sont tout à fait compréhensibles. Mais c’est à nous, Occidentaux, d’essayer de comprendre. Ça prend du temps, et je pense qu’on n’en est pas capable à 100 %. Je pense qu’il faut reconnaître nos propres failles et nos propres difficultés.

(00:05:12) Donc quand les photos sont divulguées au monde entier en janvier 2014, César et Sami sont sortis de Syrie depuis plusieurs mois maintenant, et ils pensent, j’ai envie de dire « naïvement », mais naïvement dans le bon sens du terme, c’est-à-dire qu’ils pensent d’une manière humaine, d’une manière simple, que ces images vont arrêter la guerre. Ils sont persuadés qu’une fois que le monde entier aura vu ces images, le monde va comprendre de quoi le régime est responsable, de quels crimes le régime est coupable, et ils pensent que ça va arrêter la guerre, tout simplement, que ça va arrêter les massacres. Ces photos, elles sont incroyables, dans le sens où on ne peut pas les croire, on n’arrive pas à les croire, parce qu’elles sont terribles, mais pas juste terribles parce qu’on voit des cadavres, juste parce que la quantité des cadavres, l’état des cadavres, les numéros sur les cadavres, tout ça fait qu’on n’arrive pas à y croire. Et ces photos sont en couleur. Ça peut paraître aussi étonnant, mais, de voir des photos comme ça des cadavres, mais de voir des cadavres numérotés, on pense à la Shoah, on pense à l’holocauste.

Là, on avait des photos d’aujourd’hui, actuelles, et on savait que quand ces photos étaient montrées, on savait qu’au moment où on montrait ces photos, il y avait la même chose. Au moment même où on se parle, nous, ça continue, les tortures continuent. Là vous avez un moment où, dans votre cerveau, vous ne pouvez pas faire la connexion. Enfin, c’est une façon d’expliquer, un peu, le refus de la communauté internationale et des hommes politiques de voir. Qu’est-ce que la divulgation de ce dossier a changé ? J’ai envie de dire : rien. Ou alors, ça a montré à quel point nos politiques ne voulaient pas se saisir de la question syrienne, ne voulaient pas se saisir des crimes, étaient embarrassés face à la position de la Russie, plus tard avec le soutien de l’Iran au régime syrien. Bien sûr qu’on parle de ce dossier, bien sûr que ce dossier est extrêmement important, que le dossier César est au cœur maintenant des crimes du régime. Il est au cœur aussi, entre autres, des procès judiciaires notamment en Allemagne, on en parlera plus tard. Mais au niveau diplomatique, moi je pense qu’il n’a rien changé, en fait. Je pense qu’il n’a rien changé, non.

(00:07:29) Comment dire ? En fait, les dictatures, quand elles torturent quelqu’un, elles ne laissent pas juste des traces sur la peau. Ça va bien au-delà, en fait. Elles essaient de détruire la mémoire. Elles essaient de détruire la transmission de cette mémoire. Elles essaient de détruire l’âme des gens et du coup, elles essaient de réduire au silence les gens. Et en fait, l’idée d’écrire ce livre-là, c’était d’écrire le récit des Syriens, qu’il puisse être écrit, voilà. Quelque part. Et ensuite, je ne savais pas ce qu’allait devenir ce livre, je ne savais pas ce que moi-même j’allais faire après, je ne savais pas. Mais le but premier, c’était ça, c’était d’écouter, et c’était d’entendre, d’essayer vraiment d’entendre le plus possible, et ensuite d’écrire.

Les dictatures, en fait, elles surfent sur les peurs et Bachar al Assad a surfé sur nos peurs d’Occidentaux. Et quelles sont nos peurs d’Occidentaux ? C’est le terrorisme. Et le terrorisme, pour nous, qui est-ce ? Ce sont les barbus. Ce sont les musulmans. Ce sont les femmes voilées. C’est l’islam, en fait. Parce qu’on a nous, en tout cas en France, un rapport très compliqué avec l’Islam. Et Assad, pendant des années, s’est présenté comme le défenseur de la laïcité, de la civilisation. Il n’a pas arrêté de dire : « C’est moi ou le chaos ». Mais c’est lui en fait le chaos, c’est lui qui crée le chaos. En 2014, quand j’ai commencé à travailler sur ce livre, on ne parlait presque exclusivement que de Daesh. Bien sûr, Daesh est une organisation terroriste, bien sûr qu’en 2015, il y a eu les attentats en France, etc. Mais il ne faut pas oublier quel est le principal criminel en Syrie : c’est le régime. Et donc, le dossier César avait aussi cette force-là aussi en lui-même, de pouvoir contrer le négationnisme et la désinformation, de pouvoir contrer la propagande du régime syrien.

(00:09:47) Ce procès est extrêmement important parce que d’abord c’est le premier procès, et de rentrer dans cette instance judiciaire, c’est une façon de reconnaître aussi les crimes, de reconnaître qui est le bourreau et qui est la victime, et ça, c’est extrêmement important pour aider les victimes à se reconstruire, parce qu’il faut penser à la Syrie d’après, il faut penser même aux enfants que vous élevez. Tous ces réfugiés qui sont en Europe, comment ils peuvent transmettre la mémoire de leur pays à leurs enfants ? Comment les enfants vont grandir ? C’est important. En plus quand on voit, bon là on va au-delà, on n’est plus vraiment dans le sujet mais quand on voit comment ces réfugiés peuvent être traités en Europe ! Mais enfin ces réfugiés ce sont des gens comme vous et moi, ce sont des gens comme nous. Ce ne sont pas des pauvres gens qui viennent demander l’asile. Ce sont des gens courageux qui ont une histoire de dingue, parce qu’il faut un foutu courage quand même pour être réfugié, il faut un foutu courage pour quitter son pays, même si son pays est détruit, c’est pas simple, il faut un foutu courage pour partir dans un pays où vous ne parlez pas la langue, où il faut tout reprendre à zéro. Quand vous avez quarante ans, cinquante ans, comment voulez-vous apprendre une langue étrangère, enfin... Et je pense que ce procès peut aussi nous aider nous, Occidentaux, à comprendre d’où viennent les Syriens, qui ils sont et ce qu’il se passe dans leur pays pour comprendre un peu mieux comment ils peuvent vivre aujourd’hui et comment on peut les accueillir aujourd’hui.

(00:11:24) La Syrie nous a montré en fait les désordres du monde, le refus d’aider les Syriens, le refus de reconnaître les vrais criminels. En fait, ça va nous retomber dessus. On ne peut pas passer à côté, on ne peut pas refuser de voir, voilà c’est à nous de réfléchir, il n’y a pas juste « eux » et « nous », il y a « nous ». Il y a nous tous ensemble. Et c’est ça aussi que peut amener le procès de Coblence, et ça, c’est pas encore tout à fait arrivé. Je pense que le procès de Coblence n’a pas été assez couvert médiatiquement. Peut-être qu’il le sera encore plus quand il y aura le jugement d’Anwar Raslan, en octobre ou novembre, mais voilà, ce procès raconte notre monde et ne raconte pas que le monde syrien, c’est ça qui est important et ça, je pense qu’on ne l’a pas encore assez mesuré.

(00:12:22) Ce qui était intéressant pour moi en tant que journaliste, pour mon travail, c’était que je me suis un peu plus rendu compte de l’importance du témoignage dans une enceinte judiciaire, de l’importance de ce procès, ne serait-ce que symboliquement, même si les peines vont être plus ou moins élevées, que ce ne sont pas des grands criminels, ce n’est pas le numéro 2, le numéro 3, le numéro 1 du régime. Évidemment, ce n’est pas Bachar al Assad qu’on juge, ce n’est pas Jamil Hassan, ce n’est pas Ali Mamlouk. Mais il y a quelque chose d’extrêmement fort, et ça, d’y être allée et de vivre moi-même cette expérience, je trouve ça intéressant même pour la poursuite de mon travail, pour voir l’importance de la justice et puis, aussi, d’une manière personnelle, de me dire que je n’avais pas fait ce travail en vain, parce que j’ai passé quand même des années à douter, à me demander à quoi ça servait, à quoi je sers, mais je pense que c’est le cas de tous, nous, quand on travaille sur de tels sujets, et quand on voit l’aveuglement de la communauté internationale, quand on voit la paralysie de la communauté internationale, quand on voit que les crimes se poursuivent, on se demande à quoi on sert. Je pense que je me suis sentie passeuse, en fait, et à un moment, j’ai passé aussi, j’ai passé ce que j’avais, ce que j’avais gardé, ce que j’avais compris du conflit syrien, ce que ce dossier m’avait fait comprendre, ce que Sami et César m’avaient fait comprendre, ce que j’ai pu le donner à mon tour en partie, et c’est vrai que c’est intéressant, c’est stimulant, ça permet d’amenuiser un peu les doutes et ça permet de redonner un peu de force.

(00:14:25) Qu’est-ce que la communauté internationale pourrait faire ? Elle peut tout et elle ne peut rien. C’est un peu compliqué. Elle devrait pouvoir aider à la réparation des victimes. Elle pourrait aider en refusant le dialogue avec les criminels, en refusant le dialogue avec Bachar al Assad. Elle pourrait aider en tapant du poing sur la table avec Vladimir Poutine qui soutient Bachar al Assad. Mais évidemment, c’est extrêmement compliqué, puisque la communauté internationale, elle faite de nations, donc elle est faite de négociations et de dialogue entre ces nations, donc c’est là où il y a un problème. Il faudrait que la communauté internationale pousse à la justice internationale, pousse à la création d’un tribunal pénal international, pousse à la saisine de la Cour pénale internationale, ce qui est pour l’instant impossible, puisque la Syrie n’a pas signé le Traité de Rome, qui institue la Cour pénale internationale. Donc pour l’instant, la communauté internationale, je la vois encore paralysée, mais j’espère que son principal rôle pour l’instant serait de reconnaître ces crimes, de reconnaître le témoignage des victimes, de reconnaître les victimes, et ensuite, une fois qu’il y aura un changement politique en Syrie, de pouvoir soutenir les Syriens pour qu’ils puissent instaurer une justice dans leur propre pays.

(00:16:02) C’est difficile d’imaginer ce que pourrait être la Syrie dans dix ans ou même d’avoir un espoir. Dix ans, c’est à la fois loin, mais c’est demain, dix ans, et là, ça fait déjà dix ans de révolution et personne n’aurait imaginé que les Syriens en soient là dix ans après. En revanche, ce que j’imagine peut-être, sans avoir cette limite de dix ans, mais j’imagine une reconstruction humaine, j’imagine un foisonnement, j’imagine des discussions sans fin de parents avec leurs enfants, j’imagine une sorte de bouillonnement pour reconstruire la Syrie. Et en même temps, même le mot de reconstruction, je ne sais pas si c’est un mot approprié mais j’imagine quelque chose d’extrêmement stimulant intellectuellement, humainement, pour ceux qui veulent bâtir une nouvelle Syrie, ceux qui veulent détruire cette peur, cette terreur qui a été inoculée dans le peuple syrien pendant des années. Ça va prendre beaucoup de temps mais c’est ça que j’imagine, oui. C’est cet espoir-là que j’ai. J’ai cet espoir-là pour les Syriens. J’espère qu’un jour ils vont connaître cette période extrêmement stimulante de bâtir. Et j’imagine aussi que les enfants de réfugiés qui sont arrivés en Europe, qui ont grandi en Europe, qui ont été éduqués en Europe, puissent faire profiter de leurs nouvelles compétences, de leurs diplômes, qu’ils puissent faire profiter leur pays, la Syrie, pour bâtir cette nouvelle Syrie. C’est ça que j’imagine d’une génération à une autre. Oui, c’est ça que j’espère pour les Syriens.

Anwar Al- Bunni (00:00:00):

My name is Anwar Al-Bunni. I've been a lawyer since 1986 in Syria. I was born in Hama in 1959 and I grew up in a somewhat political family whose members were, constantly, getting arrested and imprisoned, often, for long periods of time. Exceeding 20 years for one of them. In total, the whole family suffered from political imprisonment that would add up to 70-73 years. I decided to become a lawyer to defend political prisoners and human rights principles. It was my choice to become a lawyer based on this principle. 

My brothers were in prison for a long time because of arbitrary arrest and, subsequently, a number of friends were arrested too, also for their political opinions, which were peaceful. They were part of peaceful leftist political parties. Those were not violent parties. But the regime did not tolerate, with no consideration regarding any dissonant voices. Thus, they were arrested for a long time. For that reason, I decided that I have to become a lawyer, because that was the only way which I could do something to help detainees and political prisoners. Becoming a lawyer, there were legal mechanisms through which I may have a certain influence on this issue.

(00:01:55) We began defending prisoners at the court in a practical way at some point around 1994-5, that time, in which, they were transferring detainees1 to the State Security Supreme Court (SSSC), where they'd file accusations against them.  Speaking of that era, lawyers had an opportunity to play a superficial role. However, they were present at trials. Our presence gave us the chance to have access to these cases and then ability, through the 1990s, to reach out to human rights organizations such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. This enabled us to send messages about what was going on in Syria in regard to political detainees’ situation. That was my beginning public work. Through Lebanon, we were establishing communication channels with international organizations such as HRW and Amnesty.

(00:03:02) I feel proud of what I am trying to do. As for me, it wasn’t only work, I felt like this is my life. Even today many people are always telling me that: ‘your work is amazing’. I response that it’s not “work” at all. In my opinion, that’s how I am living my life. In regard to the challenges, there were many. of course, the threat of arrest and intimidation, even sending threats to my family, but in reality and in my opinion, the hardest challenge was convincing other lawyers who also had a political background and wanted to defend detainees, to convince them that the whole basis of the judicial process was a illegitimate. But rather they were focusing on the fact that specific accusations were false, and their clients were innocents. That debate was the most difficult challenge I faced. Arguing against other lawyers at that time and thanks to them - whoever dared to defend political prisoners. Of course, it was frustrating for me when we were discussing whether the accused political prisoner, if he committed a crime or not, whether he was innocent or not, if he was partially or wholly guilty. We were not discussing the very fact that the persecution is built on exceptional basis and the judicial process is unlawful, and this core issue was that the accused prisoner shouldn't have been on trial in the first place. 

(00:04:57) When I was in prison and my friends Khalil Maatouk and Razan1(both of which are now forcibly disappeared by different sides) came to visit me, I told them that they should not concentrate on my health condition in prison- which I was ill – but they should focus on the bigger picture which is the release of all prisoners because they had been detained unlawfully. They drag and manipulate you to give up the slightest demands more and more. This issue was extremely important in my opinion. All dictatorships have a goal to push you more, so you ask for less and less until you say outload ‘for god sake please keep us alive’.

Sara Kayyali (00:05:44):

I would like to ask you sir. When was it the first time you were detained by the Syrian government?

Anwar Al-Bunni (00:05:51):

First time it was 1978. In fact, I was not the target. I was living with my sister in Damascus and they came to detain her (Sahar). We were renting a room and she was not aware that they are tracking her. They detained me for seven days or six in the Al-Khatib branch 251. Also I was detained for two days when they detained my brother Yousef in 1986 or 1985. Another three or two days in 1988. In 2006, I was detained for five years.

Sara Kayyali (00:07:05):

You were set free in 2011? How did that happened?

Anwar Al-Bunni (00:07:12):

They charged me with five years, and it was done by that time.

Sara Kayyali (00:07:21):

Sir, you were telling me that they have detained you four or five times. In the last time, it was in 2006 and you were free in 2011. The events at that time had already started by 2011 once you were free, right?

Anwar Al-Bunni (00:07:40):

Yes, sure. The revolution had already begun, I was released by the end of May 2011.

Sara Kayyali (00:07:49):

How did you feel? meaning you were released and the revolution was just happening?

Anwar Al-Bunni (00:07:55):

I was in Adra prison. This prison is considered a civilian prison. Therefore, I was following everything happening outside. I felt like the moment that we are working for long time has just happened. It was the moment that we lived for. As I mentioned before, I had the feeling it will happen, I was expecting this moment from 2005. And I talked about it in the media. People will be revolting, and it won’t proceed like that. We were expecting after the Lebanese revolution1 but it was suppressed or frustrated through July 2006 war. The fetus of the Syrian revolution was killed by the crazy war which Naser Allah did in 2006. I was very happy and super excited. Even in the prison, maybe, I was the first to produce a statement in support of the peaceful demonstrations in Syria streets even it would have maybe brought consequences for example extend my trial period again, but I didn’t care. I only cared that this people’s revolution must proceed.

Sara Kayyali (00:09:36):

Could you please tell us how you saw him [Anwar Raslan] for the first time in Germany?

Anwar Al-Bunni (00:09:45):

We (me and my family) were living in a camp. They gave us accommodation. After a month, two or three I was going out in order to bring some things. It was me and my wife who saw a person with his wife. I told my wife that I know this person. But I couldn’t recall who he is. We looked at each other but he ignored me. After couple of days, one of my friends was telling me that Anwar Ruslan is in Berlin. And he is in the same camp that I am living in. Only that moment, I remembered. After that day, I saw him twice at the street in a shop for selling home stuff.

Sara Kayyali (00:10:40):

How did you feel, that in Germany, you saw the one who detained you?

Anwar Al-Bunni (00:10:49):

This is not a personal issue. As for me, my opponent is not a specific person. My opponent is a regime which has manipulated law process providing spaces for killing, torturing and abduction, without any accountability. This is not a personal issue. It is not about if this person who detained me or not. Hit me or not. It is about the regime and what it does. I was concerned that, I want to bring him on trial. At that time, I didn’t know what the chances are.

Sara Kayyali (00:11:35):

Why you were surprised that Anwar Raslan is in Germany?

Anwar Al-Bunni (00:11:40):

It was not a surprise. Yes, I was not happy to see him. I know that he defected in 2012. I didn’t follow his step; where and what he was doing. But I asked this question: How on earth you bring such people to Germany? He was recommended by the Syrian opposition, and they forwarded his application. He didn’t came to Germany through smuggling, taking the rubber boat.

By the end of 2014 we found an apartment for my family and we registered our center in Germany, officially. I established communications with NGOs which I knew in Germany and Europe like ECCHR. I was already in contact with them through email even before my detention and I also reached out to the German jurisdiction that gave me a prize in 2009. In 2016, we were participating in a workshop with ECCHR and we were discussing what kind of possibilities is out there. Only then I discovered that there is possibility in Germany, because there is an international permission as they have special unit for international crimes. ECCHR, and since 2011, has a role as an example, when the Syrian victims get in touch with them, they would refer them to the general prosecutor to provide their testimonies. The general prosecutor was listening and collecting only. We have met him several times, and I suggested: why should we only send him testimonies? what about we construct a complete case and forward it to him?

(00:14:20) Some feel the regime has won, and it is done. Thus, you feel despair and hopelessness. I expect that our efforts and results are fighting back this general Syrian despair floating around. This collective desperation may lead to either violent expressions, extremist positions or personal revenge. A feeling of congestion against others and as a result a state of deficiency and despair in a bad way in which Syrians have towards themselves and sometimes against others, violently. It could create a grounding to the extremist ideas and the radicalistic organization in which those will make use of this whole situation. This is very important challenge in which we say ‘No, there is hope. There are still a lot to do’ and sure I am happy that because of our work a general atmosphere which is to believe again in meaningfulness is restored.

Sara Kayyali (00:15:12):

I think the question for me is that your perception about justice has not changed, well sometimes I, personally, when I see how cases are being processed with in Germany or France. And I think of Syria or other Arab countries, I ask myself if we -one day- ever can see such kind of cases and trials in Syria or in the Arab countries.

Anwar Al-Bunni (00:15:41):

I am sure about it. *laugh*. We will see it.

Sara Kayyali (00:15:47):

*laugh* Are you serious?

Anwar Al-Bunni (00:15:47):

Sure, we have to approach this issue, not only, though our own capacities. In other words, surely, it is not enough with whatever we have, namely, our desire or our collective will. You have to understand how this vision or goal could be achieved, and who shall participate supporting alongside with you. No country in the world or any actor can achieve something relying only on its own capacities. Aiming at achieving your goals, you have to look around asking which coalitions you should construct. Which powers will help you and who will be stepping in against you? Aspiring to achieve goals is how we can take the easiest and less costly route. In the beginning of 2000s, the subject of human rights was receiving more attention and spread around at the world level. And this ongoing efforts towards the human rights was leading to more awareness and knowledge and therefore we were influenced by. How many constitutions were recreated in the world? In the Arab region and post 2000 How many constitutions we had? I may refer to the constitution of Tunisia and Iraq. Most of them were obliged to put human rights on top of their constitutions. It was respected. Regardless of its actual implementation or not. But this issue was a priority, and then activists and human rights organizations have a leading role in advancing policies at global and governmental levels.

Reshaping the world order on a new basis is an urgent necessity. Especially now we are experiencing problems and we are observing how politicians are acting uselessly or providing solutions that serve their own interest; to stay in power.

Anwar Al-Bunni (00:18:24):

I wrote in 2011 that the revolution will change the world. In fact, the political and geopolitical changes in the world is influenced by the Syrian revolution.

Sara Kayyali (00:18:38):

In your opinion, do you believe the efforts toward justice in Europe may lead to the same influences of the Syrian revolution as beginning efforts and small steps into real justice?

Anwar Al-Bunni (00:18:55):

Sure. This is a core goal. This is the first time in history where justice is being established before the political solution. Before when a military or political solution happens, the winner would implement his version of justice like what happened in Iraq or WW2 and other regions.  Or a political solution would neglect justice like what happened in Lebanon. Or it could be controlled like Colombia. The criminals were given the Nobel peace prize. Or in the Argentine it would be restricted only to certain levels. Or like in Morocco they would invite you to speak your pain and that’s it. So, it is either based on selectiveness or revenge. Until now we don’t have a complete transitional justice at the world level. Always these experiences were coming after the political process. Now the political solution is what would be determined by the justice process, the standards, and how it should be implemented. And for the first-time, justice has started before the crisis has ended. Consequently, justice will create standards: who will be or will not be involved. And this is our core goal. We want to prohibit criminals from being a part of the political solution in any given future Syria. And this is what happened practically until now. Therefore, it will highly influence reality because any criminal which was given an arrest warrant or accused in the European court will not be allowed to deal or rehabilitate. They won't be a part of the transitional period or be in the new political phase. Thus, this is the core goal in our work which is to not allow similar kinds of chances to rehabilitate criminals or deal with or let them stay.

Anwar Al-Bunni (00:21:23):

We want justice to be achieved in Syria. We don’t want justice to be taking place in Germany or Europe, and it is not our wish that transitional justice is controlled and managed by Europe. But we try in Europe to send a clear message to the criminals and victims and to the world that these criminals should be brought to justice that there is no possible route to just let it go. And that there is hope.

But it should be in Syria and in front of Syrians and handled by Syrians in order to give direct results in the society that respect their rights. Only then They (Syrians) would go back to build up their country and they would believe in it that there will be home for future to come.

Sara Kayyali (00:22:19):

Inshallah. Last question: do you think about going back to Syria?

Anwar Al-Bunni (00:22:27):

Do I think about? I will go back. It is not about thinking nor a dream but rather a reality. inshallah. We don’t dream about toppling down the regime. It is already done. We wait until the situation is better. If we go back, we have the duty to rebuild and be part of this process, otherwise we won’t have our Syria as we are dreaming of it. In any time and in any place, If I feel secured on my life and my freedom, I am ready to go back “yesterday not tomorrow”.

العربية

Balkees Jarrah (00:00:00):

First question, could you introduce yourself and tell us what you do now?

James Rodehaver (00:00:07):

Sure. My name is James Rodehaver and I'm the chief of OHCHR's Myanmar team, which is located in Bangkok. And my team essentially is a remote office that focuses on the human rights situation in Myanmar. We don't have access to the country. And so, we have to utilize remote monitoring methodologies and so forth to do our, our work.

Balkees Jarrah (00:00:33):

Well, that sounds very familiar to the situation in Syria and your previous role. And so, could you tell us what you were doing before this, this position with OHCHR?

James Rodehaver (00:00:47):

Yes, I was the coordinator of the commission of inquiry on Syria forum from 2014 until the beginning of 2020.

Balkees Jarrah (00:01:07):

And can we start just from the very beginning, could you tell us a little bit more about how the commission of inquiry was established and what events led to that decision?

James Rodehaver (00:01:23):

Certainly, if my memory still works! The commission of inquiry is not something that I started with. You know, it began in November of 2011 after a resolution was passed by the human rights council in late August 2011. Essentially the member states comprising the human rights council passed a resolution that called for the creation of a commission of inquiry that would deliver a report within a six-month period.

And it was given a mandate to investigate all human rights violations being committed in the context of the Syrian — crisis or armed conflict — and to you know, verify and document those violations, and wherever possible to identify perpetrators so that it could support accountability processes. And over time, that commission has become the longest running fact-finding mechanism of its type in the history of the United Nations.

Balkees Jarrah (00:02:46):

Are there specific moments that stand out to you during your time at the commission?

James Rodehaver (00:02:52):

Unfortunately, it's basically looking at just the way in which the conflict progressed and just each serious, catastrophic, you know, violation after another, every one of those critical findings or those emblematic cases that we had to report on. Each one carried you know, a weight and a gravity that just seemed to, to compound and snowball after a while in terms of the weight it left on your conscience and on your soul. Whether it be, you know, the way in which Aleppo fell or whether it be the different instances in which chemical weapons were utilized against civilians. There were a lot of moments where it just seemed that the world had gone mad and international norms no longer had any weight or applicability. And that's trying to give those standards meaning and to make them real and to breathe life and ensure that they reflected the flesh and blood of, of people who needed them to apply. That in the end just seemed to get, it became a less and a less tangible feeling. And that was a very difficult thing to deal with from a, you know, an intellectual and emotional standpoint.

Balkees Jarrah (00:04:28):

When you see a trial, like the one that's taking place in Koblenz, does that give you any hope?

James Rodehaver (00:04:35):

It doesn't give me necessarily hope because it's you know, it's one case out of tens of thousands, if not more. But what it does do is it gives you a certain sense of satisfaction, is that you realize that yes, justice is a very long road to hike, but at certain way points, some people will see the end of that road, or at least see the beginning of the end of that road. And so, I'm just grateful that people are still walking the road towards accountability. It's critical and it needs to continue. And so, so it does, it gives you a certain sense of satisfaction.

Balkees Jarrah (00:05:24):

How do you think that trial is resonating among Syrians? Do you have a sense of that?

James Rodehaver (00:05:30):

I don't have a sense of it.  I imagine that they feel in some ways the same way. I'm sure that it hasn't brought peace to many, but I'm sure it's given at least some glimmer of satisfaction to a few. And if that emboldens people to still tell their stories and to share their experiences — especially to prosecutors who are willing to take those cases forward, then it's certainly a cause for hope.

Even if it, you know, the same experience needs to be repeated tens of thousands of times over.

Balkees Jarrah (00:06:09):

And do you, is your expectation that we will see more of these kinds of cases?

James Rodehaver (00:06:16):

I think so. I think so. I think that that in the end the model that has been established on Syria is being looked at by all of these various crises in the world, that unfortunately Syria is has set the mold in the international political arena now, that, you know, impunity prevails and, and it seems to be the norm in far too many situations in the world now. And so universal jurisdiction is one of the only, you know, hopeful ways forward. And so, I'm hopeful that the Syrian model will continue to be, to be utilized and looked at to make progress in other areas, at least to make it much more difficult for individuals, even if impunity prevails within the country where the abuses and violations and crimes happen. These people will have to think twice before they leave those states.

Balkees Jarrah (00:07:29):

And the fact that this criminal process and potentially others are taking place very far away from where the crimes were committed. What does that mean for the justice process, if anything, in your, from your perspective?

James Rodehaver (00:07:52):

The road to Damascus has to be built. And so, I guess this is the first paving stone in that long road. You know, I guess in some ways, since such a large portion of the Syrian population is outside of the country, I guess it just reflects the fact that justice is reflecting the reality for such a massive number of, of Syria’s people. That justice is outside the country, just as the people. So many of the people are outside the country. But for that road to lead back to the country, and for people to see justice in Syria, you know, it'll take a situation and a circumstance — and a change in circumstances that we can't foresee now, but we have to keep building towards for the future.

Balkees Jarrah (00:08:52):

I want to just end by asking you, James, I mean, you mentioned you working at the commission of inquiry, it really, really, it drained you, and now you’re working on another very difficult situation. What keeps you going, what keeps you motivated to continue this type of work?

James Rodehaver (00:09:17):

The victims.  You said it best earlier that you take hope from the victims. I take comfort from the victims, that every time a victim is willing to share their story and they're willing to trust, either, you know, my team or me, with their data, their information, their story, their truth, trying to ensure that that information is preserved and, and is useful for the future. That that's really, you know, the only contribution I feel I can make. You know, I mentioned earlier methodology. Methodology, you know, is also something that I take comfort in. Because in the end, it's following that methodology and trying to ensure that that information is collected and preserved in a proper manner, and that it's watertight, that it can withstand scrutiny that is what is going to make sure that these people eventually find justice, and that their stories are not just dismissed as fake or phony. And that there is a record that can be used by prosecutors and in future, whenever the status quo does change. And whenever there is a road that leads either to Damascus or to Yangon or Naypyidaw or wherever justice needs to be delivered. And so, if I can play any part in that process, even if it's just the very minor thing of establishing the basic facts that the experts can then use to take forward, then that keeps me motivated. That gives me a sense of purpose. And it reminds me that there is virtue in working on human rights and on these standards. It is for those victims to try to make their road to justice easier, even if too far in the future. But whenever they get that exit ramp, whenever they find their off-ramp or their waystation in Koblenz or any other process than if we have helped assist that in any way, then I feel that'll keep me going.

العربية

Amer Matar (00:00:00):

My name is Amer Matar, I am a journalist and I produce documentaries. I currently reside in Berlin; I have been living in Germany since 2012.

One day I was looking at Facebook, and I saw Anwar al Buni had posted a news article that Anwar Raslan was going to be tried and he is currently in jail. I was shocked because I knew that Anwar Raslan… I couldn't’t imagine that he had left Syria.

In the beginning, before the trial, when I was still giving my testimony, I was seeing that things are still far away that it will be difficult and it may never happen. But when I saw the first picture of Anwar Raslan while in court, I felt that there a semblance of justice can be achieved. That this person, that I can be a lucky person, one of hundreds of thousands of Syrians who were tortured, who by chance is able to confront his jailer in a prison cell. This was very difficult especially given the circumstances in Syria where the regime still has not fallen, and no form of justice has yet been achieved in Syria.

(00:02:05) At the same time, it is painful that this would be achieved in exile, very far from our country very far from what happened. I felt that I am in another world.

I had a very negative relationship with the police in Germany. They would often stop me in the streets because of my different (skin) color. Because of my beard, often in the airports… so when they told me that I had to testify before the police I hesitated because I do not like the police, and I did not want to go tell them about a sensitive experience of this kind. But at the same time, I felt safe here and at the same time I had a very strong opinion about the police. All these mixed feelings made me a certain way.

This made me have a personal demand with this person. Whether or not he split from the regime is irrelevant, it is his decision. In the end the sins he committed…There is no way someone can kill you and then switch sides in the battle and become your friend. This is something that has more to do with political calculations rather than human rights, people’s dignity and with justice.

(00:03:53) Anwar Raslan himself, did not apologize to the victims or the Syrian people for the crimes he committed. He left (Syria) because it appears that there were threats made against his family. He has the right to do anything he can in order to protect his family’s live and they not be put in danger. But this does not mean that his crimes have been redeemed.

For me he was a jailer and represents all the criminals who destroyed our lives in Syria and made us leave our country to many different places of exile. They completely changed our lives. Anwar Raslan apart from the personal injury that is between us, he is a metaphor of the entire establishment that destroyed us. For me he represents the insolence that I feel anger, bitterness and hatred towards.

(00:05:16) But now, after everything that has happened, I think that it is my right to hold him accountable, it is my right stand in front of him in court and tell him ‘you are a criminal, you did this and this and that.’

So long as these dreams are not going to become true and the situation in Syria doesn’t change and there is no reconciliation - I feel that is my right to hold him accountable and put him in prison. But for sure I don’t want him to be hit even once, or anyone of the other criminals who beat me, tortured me and did the most heinous things to me for those things to be done to them. No, I want them to be tried in a way that respects their dignity and that of their families. And I want them to be imprisoned in a dignified way and be punished in a way that respects them and their humanity.

When the revolution erupted in Tunisia, I lost my mind. I became almost crazy thinking that we could do the same thing. They were chanting in the streets, “if the people one day wanted to live then surely destiny would one day answer.” This drove me mad. A small group of men and women demonstrated in front of the Tunisian embassy then we did two demonstrations in front of the Egyptian embassy, then the Libyan, then we started doing small demonstrations in different places in Damascus. And this is when people started coming out on March 15 in different places in Syria.

Sara Kayyali (00:07:24):

I wanted to ask you more about your work about the Daesh prisoners and how you began that line of work?

Amer Matar (00:08:08):

 When I was living in Germany in 2012, I was traveling to Raqqa often. Starting in mid 2013, Daesh began arresting our friends so we started going for demonstrations in Raqqa to demand their release. After a few months, they kidnapped my brother Mohammad Noor, he is 7 years younger than me. We went out for a big demonstration and he was released after a few days. A month or more later, they kidnapped him again.

Whenever Daesh would leave an area I would go in with a team of photographers and film the prisons. After a while I started to discover that these prisons are disappearing, either the new military forces are using them as prisons again or they are demolishing them and turn them into schools or hospitals. So, we are losing important evidence. 

All these forces are responsible but unfortunately none of these forces have had the desire to work seriously to provide answers to the families of the kidnapped or give them any information or give them anything.

(00:10:00) If I wanted to ask about my brother, where would I ask about him? How can I ask about him? Do you have no self-respect that you are the response team, but how can someone contact you? I went to a large number of mass graves you speak to them and they make you feel that you are cheating in order to get information.

Sara Kayyali (00:10:53):

To you, the Syrian government and Daesh, are they same or are they different?

Amer Matar (00:12:10):

In the end, both sides killed and destroyed us. We have two houses in Raqqa, the regime with the Russians destroyed a house, my cousin was killed at the time. And the other house, Daesh controlled it and then destroyed it and the international alliance demolished it. All the sides, in the end it was not just Daesh and the Syrian regime who are evil and hurt us. There are many sides who are evil in different ways. Even the sides who came claiming that they want to save, we discovered that they are dirty and killed people, destroyed people’s home and until today they don’t care about the people who disappeared or were killed.

Sara Kayyali (00:12:17):

Under those circumstances where all the sides are evil and the Syrians were tortured by many people, what’s the importance of this court/trial?

Amer Matar (00:13:45):

On the personal level for me, it was very important to me because it made me feel that there could be justice in the world, even in another time and place, that justice could really happen. This is what’s important to me on the personal level. In general, this court is important because all criminals who committed these crimes could feel that they could one day be tried, even if they went to Germany they could be tried under different circumstances.

العربية

Mahmoud Mosa (00:00:00):

I am Mahmoud Mosa from Idlib in Syria. I was headmaster before the revolution in my town Dama and was before that English teacher. I started the protesting against the regime from the very beginning in my town and in the area. Then I was wanted by the regime, then the army attacked my area in June, 2011. So, I escaped with my family to the border for a few days. Then the regime army were very close to the border. So, I escaped on the 21st of June 2011, where I lived in camps since that time ’til the middle of 2018 when the Turks stopped or closed the camp. I'm still living with my family in Turkey, but my work is in Syria. I started working with the Human Rights Watch and from the very beginning with Peter Pockert in June 2011, when he was in my area, he crossed the border and we documented something about the, the, the, the administrations and the detainees and the regime violations of human rights at that time, then I continued working with other colleagues in the Human Rights Watch until these days.

Like other Syrians we saw what happened in Tunisia, Egypt and other countries, but of course we didn't have the courage to do it ‘til they started in Daraa, then when we saw what happened in Daraa and Latakia, how the regime dealt with demonstrators, we decided to demonstrate in my area. So, it was in after a month of Daraa, in April 2011, and I was wanted by the regime from the very beginning, because I was a headmaster. And most of my students protested, in addition to my colleagues, at that time. So, I was wanted by political intelligence, and I went, but they did nothing, just asking me some questions. Then they released me. We stayed like this for about a month demonstrating ’til the regime attacked the area in June.

(00:02:48) At that moment, I was the only one who talked English, and some journalists were able to cross the border that time, like CNN and other TVs. So, I was the only one who talked to them and what, that was one of the reasons that pushed me to escape to Turkey, because if I was back, that means death for me. So, CNN, for example, documented these moments or those moments when I crossed with my family. And I talked to them in detail about what happened. So, we slept under trees for about a couple of weeks with the family. It was at the end of spring. So, my area had some rain at that time. So, we slept under trees with the family. And we had some food, and sometimes Turks sent some food to people under trees, but when there was no other option, except going back to that regime, I mean to jail, or to stay under trees, I decided of course, to go to Turkey, to be with my family.

(00:03:57) So there were some smugglers, they were, I don't know if you can call them smugglers. I know them well; I trust them because they helped refugees to escape at that time. Their job was to help refugees to escape from Syria to Turkey, because you know, that the regime were watching at the border and tried not to let people escape, escape to Turkey. So, these smugglers, if we can say, know how the safest ways or roads or crossing points that lead to Turkey. So, I relied on these people to help us to cross, to, to, to Syria then to cross back. Okay. So, my job at that time: to coordinate with the smugglers, to be sure that the road was safe, and everything is okay, then I have to arrange for interviews with people inside. So, I communicate with some people inside to receive us and to interview them. And of course, my main job is to translate, so I translated for the journalists.

(00:05:03) They started working as a smugglers, helping people to cross when they left the school. So, we crossed through these roads that smugglers knew. And then we go to the other side, for example, to Kurdish mountains. And we stay, for there, there for a few days. And then we film people, FSA, shelling, bombing. Yeah. it was very dangerous because the area was very limited, and the regime can attack it anytime. Sometimes we cut that trip and went back because they told us that the regime knew about you, and you have to leave. It was very, very difficult and risky, really. Sometimes the journalist had problems like they fall, they're injured, because of, not shelling, but because of the trip itself.

(00:06:04) Protesting was the most difficult thing I did. I remember at that moment, when I first demonstrated against the regime, I was yellow. I look at my hands, they were yellow. I was not able to see my face. My brother came and asked me to leave the demonstration. I didn't know why I demonstrated. Something inside me pushed me to go out and protest. So that was the most difficult thing my life, because I knew that was the beginning and it was the death. So, when you step the first step, there's nothing difficult after that. Yeah. Maybe you are afraid, but you say, okay, it is not a problem, you have to continue. So, I had something to do. We rebelled against the regime, and we had to continue this revolution against the regime, and they will never stop maybe ’til death, or we will win.

(00:07:05) The world should know what happened and what has happening in Syria. In, in the eighties, nobody knew about the crimes of the regime, nobody saw the crimes of regime now, every moment is recorded inside Syria, and everyone in the world can know what happens here. A week ago, Alex Crawford from Sky News said to me that Mahmoud Idlib is recognized again. They had an award when we were in Idlib last year, inside Idlib. We documented a lot of things inside Idlib. So, the world will, will recognize what happens inside Syria. For example, in 2016 I was able to get 20,000 files of ISIS people from Raka. Stuart Ramsey did a report.

Balkees Jarrah (00:08:10):

What would you like to see the international community do?

Mahmoud Mosa (00:08:13):

That's a very difficult question. Because they don't know what they can do. I think the most important thing is that to stop all kinds of claims and violations of human rights inside Syria, in the regime area, the free area and everywhere in Syria. Stopping this is not easy unless these people responsible for it [are] stopped. So, there should be a solution for Bashar al-Assad. It is impossible that Syria will continue unless he is away from his chair and put to jail — in court. So, the most important thing is to judge Assad, and his regime for the crimes, he did in Syria.

Balkees Jarrah (00:09:21):

What do you miss most about being in Syria?

Mahmoud Mosa (00:09:25):

(Tears Up) Everything. My home, my school, my farm, my memories with my family, my friends, my people. The mosque. Ramadan inside. Iftar. Everything. (sighs) Sorry -- you see -- I'm in Syria, last month I was in Syria. I go to Syria. I spend nice time with my friends, but my family are here. When I decided to go with my family in Eid last, the end of Ramadan, the regime shelled the house. The small house I built next to the border. He shelled - they shelled 20 meters away from that house. So, I think my family, my wife, my kids are hesitant to go again. My wife is working with a medical organization. I'm working with Sky News, sometimes with Human Rights Watch, sometimes with some journalists. Now we do a very important story about a little girl from Idlib, who was burnt in a tent. We're able to help her and her father to be together. They left the hospital last Monday. I was with them. I went to them, and we filmed, with Sky News. We filmed them at their flat. She is, of course, the little girl was burnt. She lost her hair, nose, mouth, melt, her ears were melted, her lips were melted, and the Turks help her. They did a lot of surgeries for her. She is still alive, she is a miracle, as her doctor said. We will continue with her, helping her, and documenting the steps that she passes. British people helped her, they donated her about six, more than 60,000 pounds. I don't know if you have seen the reports about her. Yeah. So, such stories give you another impression, and another kind of life.

العربية

Balkees Jarrah (00:00:00):

So, we can start with a very simple and straightforward question, Claus, which is, could you please introduce yourself and, and tell us what you do.

Claus Kress (00:00:14)

With pleasure. I teach criminal law and public international law here in the university of Cologne, where I also direct the Institute of International Peace and Security Law.

Balkees Jarrah:

Yeah. And I also wanted to ask you, I mean, you're, I'm sure aware about issues related to access to the trial for non-German speaking individuals the trial is obviously entirely in German. Interpretation is only provided to the parties in the case, the accused or the victims, as well as some accredited journalists, but there are also no transcripts or recordings apart from the official documentation that comes out in the form of judgements, as you mentioned. Just to take us full circle back to Nuremberg, looking back at Nuremberg and other significant international criminal law moments in Germany's history, what are your thoughts on the documentation of such cases like the one that's taken place in Koblenz?

Claus Kress (00:01:34)

Well, I guess in terms of documentation things need to be improved. There can be no doubt about this. But you have to see those things also little bit in perspective, Balkees, and then you will see that it is possible — and I would even deem it likely — that improvement on  the documentation front is possible. Let us go for a few moments back to where we have come from. This Syrian proceedings, they were conducted — and the conviction is — for crimes against humanity for crimes against humanity, because of the involvement of the accused person into a system of torture established by the Syrian Assad regime. To speak more precisely, aiding and abetting in a crime against humanity. Crimes against humanity, Balkees, were not criminalized as such in Germany until July, 2002, even though crimes against humanity have such a historic importance for German history because they formed part of the Nuremberg legacy.

The judiciary is so to speak at the end of the chain of judicial activity. First of all, the application of the code of crimes under international law lays in the hands of the police and the prosecutor. It is there, it is with their sense of a mission, that it is decided which importance in practice such a code of crimes acquires. But if a sense of mission is felt there, as I think we can today say, is the case in Germany, then ultimately this process will and must end before the judiciary. But this judiciary again is confronted with a type of proceedings, which is in a number of aspects, quite different from traditional ones.

(00:04:22) And the aspect of documentation is among the most important of those new unaccustomed elements. For an ordinary German trial, even if this trial is considered of vital importance for the German public, there is no need to be concerned about documentation in foreign languages. There is not so much need — no decisive need I would say, about making sure that observers from all over the world can follow. Because a traditional German trial is about a national, a German prosecution interest. This fundamentally changes when it comes to the exercise of universal jurisdiction over crimes under international law. Here, Germany is not prosecuting primarily in order to satisfy a national prosecution interest. Here, Germany—to use those terms— is acting as a fiduciary of the international community because of a conduct that has confronted, infringed, vital interests of the international community as a whole. And this ideally should translate into the procedural framework.

 It should, first of all, translate into the possibility of victims of the crimes concerned, victims, which are typically of a foreign nationality. Victims, not only to participate as witnesses, but also to be able to follow the attempt to mete out justice in their cases. But the interest goes even beyond victims of the crimes. It is a truly international interest. I think we have increasingly understood that a core, if not the core, mission of international criminal justice is to express a meaning, is to convey a message. And this message is to uphold fundamental international values, to uphold the validity of international legal rules, even in a case of massive violation. This is the idea of proceedings such as the Syrian ones. To confront the world with a message: yes, Mr. Assad and his regime, they may have felt for many years in a position to trample upon the most fundamental international principles, but he and his regime will not prevail.

(00:07:45) It is not their message that will, so to speak, stand the test of history, but it is the perseverance, the maintenance of the international legal rule through fair judicial proceedings. And if this message is to be a powerful one, it should not only be conveyed to the German audience, but it should be conveyed to the international community as a whole, because the international community as a whole is the ultimate addressee of such proceedings. This entails a number of further changes, I guess, within Germany's procedural framework. But just as a matter of fairness, I think one should not blame the German legislator, and certainly least the German judiciary, for not yet having established a procedural framework which perfectly reflects the distinct goals of international criminal justice. It is a kind of process by trial and error. It is a process where even the best and most passionate legislator cannot predict anything and cannot see and consider anything in one legislative act.

(00:09:20) It is important that we make our experiences, as we do in this Syrian trial, that we draw the consequences at home, and we should do that in Germany. And that we share those experiences with the outside world, to the extent that they have not already made those experiences on their own, because let us not forget those German proceedings are important. And in the case of Syria, they may have a pioneering effect. But the idea is that in future instances, it is not Germany alone. It is Germany with many others and perhaps, or even likely there will be many instances where just not Germany's judiciary, but other national judiciaries that are far better placed to take up the candle, but they can also now perhaps learn from the imperfections that we are experiencing here in Germany now.

العربية

Naomi Kikoler (00:00:00):

My name is Naomi Kikoler and I am the director of Simon- Skjodt Center for the prevention of genocide at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, DC.  My paternal grandparents were Holocaust survivors. My grandfather lost every member of his family and growing up his silence and also my grandmother's stories of what it was like to go through Auschwitz and elsewhere really were quite formative. And on my mother's side of the family are Christian. They were part of the Danish resistance and those stories really also helped to motivate me in terms of what is the good that people can do to try to help others. And really at the very start at the Syrian uprising I started working with colleagues, including from Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and elsewhere in a former job engaging and I spent about eight years engaging the UN security council, the various UN actors, member states on Syria. It was incredibly at times humbling and frustrating work. And after eight years especially the years that I worked on Syria I found myself often thinking that we were just shouting into the wind because Syria was an instance where it would be very hard for anyone to say that they did not know the crimes are happening in real time. They were unfolding before cameras around the world, in terms of, you know, on the news in our newspapers remarkable in heroic Syrian civil society organizations were working incredibly hard to bring detailed information about the atrocities to light, but we still were faced with unbelievable inaction. And that's not to say there wasn't anything done. There were there were efforts taken, especially by individual states to sanction individuals' diplomatic engagement. There were a lot of measures that were taken, but it wasn't translating into action on the ground. And in all honesty, when I, I left New York my heart felt kind of broken because it was, it was hard to look at Syria and not feel a sense of despair that the world, in a sense didn't care.

(00:02:10) So one of the things that we started to try to do at the museum was really think strategically about how do you humanize what is happening in Syria, who are the people that we would want to bring to Washington to have their stories told if we could get them into the country, which was a real challenge who are the people that we wanted to bring to the white house to Capitol Hill and doing some of that storytelling, both in terms of the exhibit, that we'll talk more about, the videos that we produced. But also, the events that we would hold, how to do that in a way that really counters intentionally that framing that the Assad regime was so effective in trying to advance. And the reality is the brunt of the work is done by the people who are in the countries that we are, are focused on, and they're often the unsung heroes and they often don't have the support that's required. And they're often doing that work because the international community has failed. And I think what is incredibly hard and when we think about Caesar and we think about all of our Syrian colleagues is they somehow find the ability and the power and the, the inner resolve to keep going, even in the face of feeling so often, like they are sharing really powerful, personal, painful information and experiences and nothing is being done.

(00:03:40) We built this exhibit, and the exhibit was incredibly powerful. It was called Syria, please don't forget us. And it told the story of detention. It told the story of the uprising. It told the story of the horrific mass atrocities that have been committed through essentially one individual and the 82 people that he was held in detention with. And that individual is Mansour Omari who is a journalist. And he smuggled on five sheets of cloth that he wove into his clothing. On the five sheets of cloth were 82 names of people that he was detained with, that were tortured, that were held in detention. And they wrote their names on those cloths using blood and rust. And, you know, it's just incredibly painful to think about each of those 82 individuals and what they represent in regard to the hundreds of thousands who shared and share a similar fate. But the, you know, the power of the exhibit was that we endeavor to try to tell in as ethically, in an ethical way, the story of those 82 people and the story of Mansour through as much as possible, his voice and his recollections.

(00:05:07) For some people, you know, the Holocaust was of, you know, obviously 6 million Jews were killed persecuted on the basis of their identity. I think for many people at times, they're surprised to see that an institution that was built to tell the narrative of one community — and not only the Jewish community —would stand in such solidarity with Syrian victims and survivors. And you know, for us, it's always very powerful to say that we're focused on the human experience. It doesn't matter what a person's religion, ethnicity, nationality, political identity is.

I think the fact that we have, you know, the first trial on state perpetrated torture in Syria that was launched in Germany is pretty remarkable and groundbreaking. It has been long in the making in terms of actually being able to see this come to fruition, but the fact that we're actually seeing a case around crimes against humanity, the fact that you have organizations that are now representing you know, 30 plus Syrian torture survivors, who will hopefully, you know, through that experience also be able to have their experiences and voices heard is incredibly powerful. One of the things that we know from the Holocaust is for survivors, they will not give up on the pursuit of justice. You know, the, at the same time the Koblenz's trial was going forward - I think it was launched in April of 2020 — the German courts were also dealing with cases involving Holocaust perpetrators. So, people who committed crimes 80 years ago, and again, like going back to that kind of common thread that we try to in our work help to evoke, that the denial of human dignity and what needs to be done in situations where you see these crimes occurring in such a profound way. I think it's incredibly stark that you've got these trials happening and happening in the country where they themselves committed horrific genocide and crimes against humanity is very powerful. But it's also humbling just to know how hard it is to build these cases. And I think one of the things that we really try to talk a lot about with our Syrian colleagues but through our justice work with colleagues in South Sudan, in Iraq, in Burma, is also trying to help manage expectations because we know that the road to justice can be so long that that term justice means so much, and so many different things to different people and that trials are just one avenue of really trying to advance accountability. And that when we think about transitional justice, there are so many different prongs that we need to be trying to move forward and advance.

Sara Kayyali (00:07:50):

What do you hope to see for Syria 10 years from now?

Naomi Kikoler (00:07:58):

I mean, my hope is really that my friends and colleagues are able to go home and that they can live lives, where they have the ability to flourish, and where their commitment to human rights and to the respect of diversity are able to, to be part of their, their day-to-day life. And there's a lot that needs to happen in order for people to be able to go home and to be safe. And it's really humbling to, to think about that, but I think just on a very human level, you know, what I hope is that they don't have to continue to live lives of exile because, you know, in a lot of the work that we do, part of our goal in that effort to try to kind of humanize the crisis and put a face to what is being talked about is also an effort to counter these really incredibly degrading perceptions that Syrians who are fleeing as refugees are doing so because they're, you know, wanting to take advantage of European countries or, or elsewhere, and everyone we work with, if you ask them what they want to do, they want to go home. They want to build a future of their country. I mean, these are people who have remarkable skills, energy, dedication, and they are transforming the countries that they are in today, and that they've sought refuge in and I'm in complete awe of them. But the reality is what I hope in 10 years is that they're able to do all of that in pursuit of, of their own future in the country that they were born and they feel so passionately about, and that they in so many of their loved ones have suffered immense and really trauma that, that can never be completely repaired, but perhaps in some small way can be channeled to really trying to build a better future for, for Syria. So, it's a really simplistic wish in terms of the core principle of, you know, what we as humans aspire for, but it's an incredibly difficult one when you think about the, the political realities, the security realities today in Syria.

(00:10:14) You know, I hope that in 10 years, we’re all sitting down in Damascus or somewhere in Aleppo and having a really great meal, you know? And the incredible hospitality of the Syrian people is, is something that, you know, we can all enjoy. And the beauty and the history of the country — though it, it needs a lot of rebuilding— is something that is experienced and enjoyed by people all around the world. And that the story of Syria isn't opening up the pages, or I will be candid, wishing that we opened up the pages today and saw accounts of what was happening, because it is largely invisible unfortunately now. But that the kind of understanding of Syria is one of just a truly remarkable country that has contributed to so much to the world and continues to. So that would be my 10-year hope.

العربية

Balkees Jarrah (00:00:00):

Could you introduce yourself? Just your full name, and tell us what you do. Let's start with Alex.

Alex Suttor (00:00:05):

Alex. Well, my name is Alexander Suttor,  and I'm a research assistant at Clifford Chance's White Collar Department at the Frankfurt office.

Alex Dünkelsbühler (00:00:20):

My name is Alexander Duenkelsbuehler and I’m a research associate at Clifford Chance's International Arbitration department, in Frankfurt as well.

Balkees Jarrah (00:00:27):

I did want to ask both of you to speak to, now that you've been covering the trial for about two months, since April, what have some of the most unexpected or dramatic moments of the trial been so far?    But before we delve into that, maybe just for everybody listening in, can you tell us in a word what this trial is about? What are the crimes that are at issue? Who are the defendants in the trial? Where is it taking place? Just the basic facts.

Alex Suttor (00:01:08):

Yeah, sure. What it is, it is a war crimes trial held in Germany, which is unusual in some way because none of the defendants are German. None of the victims are German, and of course all the acts alleged did not happen in Germany. And this is possible due to a relatively recent addition to the German criminal code, which is called the Völkerstrafgesetzbuch, which means international crimes criminal code, where the German legislatures decided that war crimes and crimes against humanity should be prosecuted in Germany even if there's no nexus to Germany in any way, shape or form.

And this is why in Koblenz there are now two people on trial who were members of the Syrian secret services, the intelligence services. And one of them was the head of the investigation subdepartment at a place called Department 251, which is interrogation detention center, a black site in the middle of Damascus, actually, north of the old town. And the main defendant is accused of having committed crimes against humanity through a systematic attack on the civilian population involving torture, involving inhuman detainment, and also questioning people under torture. And he's this colonel in the secret services. And he was the head of the investigation department, at, or rather the  investigation subdepartment, at Department 251 of the Al Khatib facility, which is a name given to it for the neighborhood.

And the second defendant was a, also an employee, we would say in the broader sense, of 251, but he was serving in a subdepartment. He was a noncommissioned officer there, and it was interesting. The role of his unit doesn't become entirely clear, because it is headed by a member of the Makhlouf family, which are closely intertwined with the ruling Assad clan. So his unit is kind of a mixture of demonstration, suppression unit, and arrest unit, and also the personal bodyguard of Hafez Makhlouf, the unit's commander.

And he is accused of aiding and abetting crimes against humanity, by arresting people and delivering them to the Department 251 facility to be interrogated under torture, and as there were a number of deaths at that facility as well. Mainly found him as accused of killing people in the course of crimes against humanity, which carries life in prison. So there are very, very high stakes here.

Balkees Jarrah (00:04:28):

And so, you started following the trial in April, at the end of April and so it's been a few months. Maybe Alex D, can you describe some of the more dramatic or more unexpected moments, for the trial, of the trial? What have those been for you?

Alex Dünkelsbühler (00:04:52):

That's a good question. For me, a couple of moments actually stick out. Surely the one that was most memorable, or one of the most memorable was when the defense council of Anwar Raslan read out his statement. Mr. Raslan chose not to express himself during the trial so far, but he prepared a statement with his defense attorneys. They read it out relatively early in the proceedings, and it was very interesting because it was very much awaited by everyone who was in there, everyone was curious as to what defense he would choose.

Personally, and I think the feeling was shared by many people, everyone was waiting for some kind of quotation marks Nuremberg defense acknowledging the facts but saying that essentially he had been following orders. But that was not what Mr. Raslan chose to do. He essentially said he had no idea what was going on. He was just doing his job pushing paper essentially and writing reports but never interacting with prisoners, or never visiting the actual prisons, which were in the same building. And this went on for quite, quite a while.

(00:06:14) Otherwise, what really sticks out for me was the depositions of the people who had experienced Branch 251 and its torture chambers. And, for instance, Mr. Anwar al-Bunni, the Syria human rights lawyer, who spoke for two days and spoke with great eloquence about the plight of those who had vanished into the Syrian prison system, and those who had experienced torture, and rape and horrible, horrible treatment.

And that was such a harrowing experience, because you have to imagine it. We sit on the public gallery, and around us are a couple of journalists, but also quite a few members of the Syrian community in Germany. And some of them don't understand German very well but Mr. al-Bunni spoke in Arabic so they were really able to participate and to listen, and you could see and feel the emotion around you when he was describing just the terrible fate of those who had had the misfortune of landing there, in this Branch 251. So, that was really, really, really emotional and distressing, especially the terrible situation of those who had suffered sexual abuse in this prison.

(00:07:41) Mr. al-Bunni memorably said that people who undergo this are punished twice, once through the act itself in prison, and then the second time by society, because the taboo and shame is such that they can never speak openly about it. Some of them are rejected by their families. He spoke how he had had to help certain women have hidden abortions afterwards. It was really, really tough to listen to and it really showed the importance of prosecuting these crimes.

Another moment, and I'm sure Alex S. will want to add to this, that stuck out for me is the sort of vigils that the Syrians hold in front of the court. Every morning, when they arrive very early, some as early as 5:30 in the morning, and they bring with them dozens and dozens of portraits of people who are missing in the Syrian prison system. And they build up these portraits outside of the courthouse, and place white roses on them and film themselves with it and talk to journalists and try to raise awareness essentially also of the people who pass by. And then in perhaps very German fashion, they’re not allowed to do it on the site itself of the court, because you can't have political protests there. But they can't also do it on the sidewalk because then the city would protest, because you can’t put your stuff on the sidewalk, so they have to essentially straddle the fine line between the two properties, it’s a bit absurd.

Alex Suttor (00:09:25):

What really struck me how these pictures or these portraits, they showed such a cross-section of society. There were people in business suits, having obviously taken that photo for applications or for official webpages, there were teenagers in football jerseys, there were couples taking snapshots, there were kindergartners, there were, I don’t know, goofy groups of friends making faces into the camera. And it was really tough to imagine there's all these people, you know from the kindergartner to the goofy teenager to the middle-aged businessman, they have all vanished for some reason or other and considered enemies by their own government for some reason or other. It really shows that this is war, these crimes, they stop at no one. Everyone can get caught up and there's no escaping it.

Sara Kayyali (00:10:20):

Yeah. I'm just listening to you speak about how Anwar R. characterized his defense, and then the testimony of Anwar al-Bunni. And I'm just wondering, I mean, the contrast between those both testimonies seems so, so great. How was it for you when you were in court, hearing these very disparate views of the role of interrogators in al-Khatib Branch? And what was it like for the rest of the audience?

Alex Dünkelsbühler (00:10:52):

It was, they really, they did present a kind of split screen view of it. Both accounts are absolutely impossible to square, and I think for all... Even if one might have been tempted to be convinced by the arguments of the prosecution, the fact that Mr. al-Bunni spoke so eloquently and in such great detail about his experience with not only the Branch 251 al-Khatib prison, but in general about the meaning of detention and torture for the Syrian state, really completely gave you a wholly different picture of what actually must have happened in this Branch 251 prison.

And Mr. al-Bunni explained things that are not news, but that were news to this trial, about how much the Syrian government depends on torture and the threat of torture and the threat of forced disappearance, to sustain its power and to intimidate the opposition, to intimidate families of anyone who would dare speak up. And also it was particularly emotional for everybody else on the gallery, who was for the first time really able to follow this story in Arabic. And so that really changed the tone of the whole story and the feeling of the room. Because I was sitting between Syrians who were taking notes, and who were welling up. And it was really intensely emotional, and very hard to listen to. And I know that we will have more and more victims of torture who will come and take the stand and participate in the hearings.

Sara Kayyali (00:12:41):

Indeed, but I do know that a lot of the Syrians that I work with are following this closely. And they're, you know, very resourceful when it comes to finding information that they need. I wanted to ask how this trial has impacted your understanding of the Syrian conflict and how your understanding has evolved in the time that you've been observing the trial?

Alex Dünkelsbühler (00:13:10):

For me, I realized how much the Islamic State had drawn attention away from the Assad regime for many years. Since it first began, the attention of the global media and of politics have been basically entirely focused on the crimes committed by the Islamic State and these crimes were, in fact, egregious, there’s no questioning that. But maybe that has shielded the Assad regime from criticism to some extent.

They were only discussed in terms of military campaigns and of territory gained or lost. But what has really come back to the forefront through the struggle, for me personally, at least, is just the absurd brutality and cruelty that is the Assad regime, and that is the Syrian state. And just how widespread torture and abduction and just senseless violence is — even in the parts of Syria that are not under the Islamic State. And even in Syria prior to the Civil War.

So for me, that kind of has recalibrated a little bit my picture of the conflict in Syria, away from Daesh and back to Damascus to some extent. Because that is things that you can read about them, you can hear about them. But it's completely different, of course, to sit there when victims of torture, and people like Anwar al-Bunni, are testifying themselves, that is just much more personal and then it hits you in a completely different way. So that is one of the things that I personally have taken away from this about Syria in general.

Alex Suttor (00:15:05):

Well, something that struck me was we have to keep in mind the trial provides a snapshot of this conflict because... which started in 2011, and then it goes up to when the defendants deserted, because obviously these are the times that are at issue in the trial.

But what I thought that the great tragedy was, how this regime, doesn’t have nay, they don't have the instruments to react to request for change, to demonstrations to civil disobedience, right? We are getting, you know, reports of what was discussed in the trial is a period of 2011, when there was no Civil War yet, where people were demonstrating, protesting in the streets peacefully, singing and dancing.

And where your first reaction would be, as I don't know, a sane government to say, "Well, these are people interested in civil society. These are the people who we should engage with and maybe, I don't know, enact reforms or listen to them." But it's a situation when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. They have no mode of responding other than barbaric violence and so this is what they use.

There's one episode that was described twice, where Hafez Makhlouf happens on a demonstration, gets into a shouting match with the demonstrators — a peaceful demonstration — and then goes back to his modified Mercedes Benz off-road vehicle, retrieves a machine gun and empties the clip on the demonstrators and then exhorts the people around him, the soldiers to do so as well.

I think what really strikes me, we have this view how, you know, the Syrian regime and the Assad clan, they are these Bond villains, who have this great master plan to, you know, suppress the people and so on and so forth. And what really comes out is, in the face of civil disobedience and requests for change, they are as barbaric as they are incompetent.

They only react with violence. They have nothing else there. And as I said, the tragedy is the snapshot we are providing within the trial was of a... If you consider the Syrian conflict as a whole, as a more hopeful time, I mean, you have to consider Anwar R., he deserted because he thought the Assad regime would collapse. And he didn't want to be caught on the losing side as a member of the intelligence services of that fight.

And so this is what comes through when people talk about these days in 2011. We, of course,  now know that the regime didn't collapse. That the war dragged on. You know, that many, the witnesses, they always mention their home cities and their home cities are all, cities reduced to rubble, we know that from the news.

And from the perspective, the timeline of the trial, that's all in the future, of course. And so what I took away from it maybe is that we look at it through our present lens and go, "Well, you know, it all devolved into civil war, and there are these warring factions, all of which…none of which really deserves our support. There are Islamists and there's the regime. There are, I don't know, rebels backed by all kinds of government.” But this was not inevitable, right?

In the beginning, there was a very peaceful, civil campaign for social change for civil society, which was repressed as a danger to the State and it really, really brings that back, that there could have been other ways, but they were not, you know, pursued.